We’ve all heard of Dad Rock, but what about Mom Rock? Today Jessica Hopper is back on the podcast to discuss, debate, and maybe even discover what mom rock is and where it’s headed.
Jessica is a Chicago-based music critic and the author of The First Collection of Criticism By A Living Female Rock Critic, The Girl’s Guide to Rocking, and her memoir, Night Moves. Her new book No God But Herself: How Women Changed Music in 1975 will be available soon, so keep an eye out for it!
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Music. Welcome to all up in my lady business I am your host Mary nisi on this podcast all explore the fine line between having it together I'm losing your shit. Here I share my journey as an entrepreneur a mom a wife a DJ and randomly a beekeeper. I have no shame and no filter except the ones I use on Instagram. My stories of resilience a little structure and a lot of resource Wellness who show you how to take those same things and live your life with your whole ass. Thanks for listening, all right folks thanks so much for tuning in today to all up in my lady business so I'm going to give some backstory little bit about how this episodes happening so I'm recording this episode on November 5th the midterms are going to be happening in three days and I'm very much in a bad headspace about them because I just don't know what's happening and I feel very helpless and it's fucking my brain up and I'm feeling bad and I feel like so many of my episodes have just been me marinating in kind of the weird head space I've been in since I literally citizen since I started the podcast and you know the the episode but perimenopause and Midnight's happened I feel like I can't just keep doing these bummer e episodes where I'm just sort of you know vacuously talking off into the middle distance and just feeling my feelings and then dragging you down with me and I asked my friend Jessica who was on a couple weeks ago about what we should do but I'm like I need episode ideas and I realized I was exactly doing the things she said. Happened to her that made her mad was just people Plumbing her for ideas for copy and but one of the things you came up with was Mom Rock and like the idea of mom Rock and like you know how I feel about Mom Rock and I'm like what the what's Mom Rock we all know what Dad rock is earliest there's Dad rocks of thing in the world and and so Jessica is happy to come over today she's here right now say hi Jessica hi just get we're like on a marathon we're like on a marathon day like we're yeah like we just fell in love and were like in college or something like we're hanging out too much little too much. But it was just this one but it's just I got here at 11 a.m. I think currently it's 60 to it's 60 to Central. And we've you know we've been revivified by copious what would you call that a potted meat what is that Ami is salami, salami and went on errands together we fixed a machine we're having Diet Cokes we talked about the about God and if he exists and and she and if it's a he. Got it a goddess the woman's name like the song says yeah we do I mean everything we were, it's a marathon and so of course we basically lived a link at Richard linklater movie hmm we just walked around and figured out our souls yeah and we're going to meet here again. Couple years Yeah March 15th wait what happens on March 15th isn't that the Before Sunrise oh yeah so exactly I can't we use pulled out of your ass I have a t-shirt for it that's how I know okay anyway so I had gone so after Jessica was like what's my you should talk about Mom Rock and I was going to do this whole episode of mom Rock and I was like I need to do some research on what that means exactly like what do people think of when they think about Mom Rock so I posted a thing on my Facebook which is you know your tightly controlled people, you know that you are friends with like that's what's in the Facebook feed and I posted this with the query what would you consider mom Rock and if you're a mom who your favorite bands now I realized that there was a huge flaw in my information gathering I should have just limited it down to one of those questions because all the answers I got. I couldn't tell if they were saying what their moms were into or if there are mom would they were into then I put it on Twitter and I put this on Twitter on Thursday November 3rd which was the day before. Elan late everybody off and violated a bunch of labor laws in terms of. It's probably worse than we can even imagine you don't even need and everybody knows but it's bad it's bad what's happening on Twitter it is so I post this on Twitter I never post anything on Twitter I'm a big re Tweeter I'm a I sometimes come in here and there but like I don't I just go on there just to make my brain feel bad I don't go on there to actually like go viral or whatever I posted this I posted the what is Mom Rock if you're a mom what do you listen to and I immediately got some people who were kind of like commenting but then Newbury Comics the, record store chain in Boston retweeted it I don't know even how they even got to me and I have had just dozens and dozens and dozens of reply everyone's been super cool about it though it but it doesn't the thing is is that I went viral, on the last day of twitter-like of it being okay. It's like that's just me but also it hasn't been okay for a while but Leggett surely it's really it's really bad now it's really it's beyond shark jumping but then. I took all of the data drumroll I took all I remade a spreadsheet of every band and. If they were repeated I put them in there again so I could see how many times so was getting some love and we are at I got 304. Different well not different mentions of bands or artists and some of them. Like absolutely predictable and you can kind of tell like oh this person's mom is probably pushing even yeah okay but there's a there's a there's a Gen X parent the parents of a Gen X or yes then there's the parents of a millennial. And there's a parents of gen Z ER and then and then also. Some answers that are just baffling because they're what I think teenage like very young teenage women listen to or I think I think some of it also was. People posting songs that they make themselves sound cool like this is a band I used to listen to 15 years ago and I'm just saying that because I think that's going to make like A Perfect Circle like that would be like absent so let's let's why don't we can I can I can I said thanks for sharing your notes with me here let's just let's just let's just start, at the top when when I suggested mom Rock to you, in your mind what's like first thought best thought when I said Mom Rock what did you think of well when you said Mom Rock I immediately thought of. Well there's no definition there's no there's no Mom Rock in the pantheon of you know. Like the way that like Wilco or the national Steely Dan like how they kind of. You think of these kind of like just a bunch of guys hanging out maybe they've sparked a doobie they've got, you know they're just playing their guitars and and and the other thing is that it's like it's a it's also associated with you know High Fidelity audio equipment It's associated with like plaid shirts. Dads having some like kind of feelings or Nostalgia and its really well-defined yeah like it's all soft focus. Like it it's just I feel like it's a little disingenuous because. Or maybe it is maybe it is the purest maybe it actually because you when you think of like man rock you think of like angular guitars and you know I don't know like how others. See Death Cab. Don cat Okay from oh my God I can't imagine the book would be like from Don cab to death cab the because Death Cab is definitely a dad rock band like. The from Don cap to death cab. Your complete guide to your dad's entire record could yes yes or like your parents divorce. Hoof like you know how it happened in, in five songs or less but when you said Mom Rock I was like what is Mom rob because like with my mom Jean nisi no longer with us rest in peace but she loved music more than anything she was in a Dixieland Jazz Band that toured Europe twice. Yeah and not that's maybe she didn't really listen to Dixieland music she was looking to need a baker she was really into like Barbra Streisand Barbra Streisand my mom had like the career but my mom wished that she had like she hadn't started pooping out so many babies maybe she would have been Barbra Streisand so she was kind of like into vocals vocal Jazz yeah and just like in like Billy Joel like those 70s soft rock she was in a singing yes and yeah and Elton John you know that kind of singer-songwriter e she didn't like the Beatles The Rolling Stones she's a little too old for that, like it was that 70s soft rock pop vocal Jazz stuff and a lot of that came up like Barbra Streisand came up and in your sort of informal poll in my informal poll so when you get it so we same with my Mark it's just ill-defined well I think I think my so my thought I'm part of the reason that Mom rock is ill-defined and this is part of the reason I suggested it for you which is a mess. Make it sound like this is a riddle hmm it's ill-defined mmm it walks in the morning the crawls in the afternoon it's my rock and. But part of that I think is because I think of mom Rock being a pejorative term it's. It's never used to elevate something people might say oh well dab Rockets whatever. But all of the things that we associate with Dad rock is virtuosity and really nice microphone it's you know a really literate bright lyrics. And Mom rock is if it's anything it's an insult. It's for sappy music it's sad it's something that's really safe. Andy and diametrically opposed to the idea of rock hmm and and the tenants of rock and I will say that a lot of people when I ask is quite cuz I texted a bunch of my a bunch of texts a bunch of my friends and got there I started with some friends and then I was like maybe go to Facebook and then I was like well fuck I'm taking it to Twitter just to kind of see what I could get, and a lot of them were first of all getting hung up on the board band because I was like what bands do you like what bands did your mom listen to her what bands do you listen to no one listens to bands anymore so many will really hung up on bands. And then they were like well none of this is really rock and I'm like okay I meant I was like okay I meant. Like I don't think I'm use I don't think Wilco rocks and yet here they are and I think that also with with like bands like like Wilco wears their dad Rock thing as a badge of honor do you think Amy man. From a team and a Steely Dan is that was yeah that was our other that was our other Amy man who came up a lot in my in my imperfect survey a me man. I don't think she would want to be known as Mom Rock know I think she'd be really grossed out yeah I how strangely reductive but she's also like you know. One of America's greatest living songwriters and but her but I do feel like I mean Amy man is like the lady Wilco sort of, like insofar of like her music is recorded really well it's very it's got sound it's you know structured it's Moody you know she's got a lot of Integrity like you know yeah I mean she was like one of the first artists to be independent I mean in a way I think she actually think a me man. Presages so much of not to be like Aimee Mann paved the way sure for Jeff. Tweety she walked so Jeff could run yes but I think there is some truth to that. I think there is some truth to that and so it's kind of like this this becomes that kind of like in a funny way. This Paradox of mom music I think is kind of weirdly exemplified by your example of a me man by other people's example of a me man because what is a me man it's. Beautifully recorded its hyper literate lyrics it's phenomenal song craft its, some of the it's really Beyond it's like all the exact same words that we would use to describe will go maybe not quite Steely Dan but like similarly so but that we just don't associate these things Big Air quotes we. I do I said I associate these things but that most people when they're talking about music. I think that those qualities are inherently male yes Ian to be prescribed. To be masculine traits and it's really funny because when you look at some of who these artists are that people are talking about particularly when you know Fleetwood Fleetwood Mac came up the most so think about like okay. Fleetwood Mac anyway that you would describe them would be these traits that we think of as being. Dad Rock probably or classic rock I actually here's the thing in the Fleetwood Mac of the whole thing is an interesting one because it's got both male and female voices as their front people but I do think that people look at Fleetwood Mac, and maybe they weren't in love triangles with people within their friend group but they've all had been betrayed I feel like I feel like the themes of Fleetwood Mac and. It's like the themes of Fleetwood Mac are and everybody knows the story I feel like that's part of the reason why Fleetwood Mac is, become this because it's like there's like drama and gossip and there's like you know some we all kind of know the story of it to a certain extent and it's kind of legendary but I do think. To go to the Aimee Mann while you're like you know she's virtuous she's you know like we don't know she doesn't have a. She doesn't have a like a shitty story like no one she's a bit opaque. As a celebrity goes but but she was also like you know she was really one of the first people to like leave for major labels and do like internet stuff I mean she was really like you know. She's a lot of integrity and if you look at a lot of so when you think of like you know Wilco like fucking Jeff Tweedy had that, he was on drugs for a second when I when A Star is Born or whatever the ghost is born like when that album came out we're just to the two biggest Wilco fans of like I could tell you to of the name of the guys in the band. Yeah that's like the folks well but they're but there's like you know there's been everybody knows that there was some shit that went down and that one guy left and then he died and then like the he Jeff Tweedy was on drugs for a second and like there's some like there's some bad boy stuff kind of in there all of the I feel like a lot of these dad rock bands they have there's like some there's sadness and misery a lot of the women that came up the Aimee Mann's I guess not the Fleetwood Mac's but feis came up a lot Alanis Morissette came up a lot. Let's see Kelly Clarkson Kenny Loggins get the fuck out you guys I think that's what we have a theory about that as well so like Matchbox 20 actually came up a bunch of I thought which I thought was weird I'm like I couldn't quite wrap my head around the why of that but like Melissa Etheridge the Indigo Girls Natalie Merchant 10,000 Maniacs him and it's all these I would have really expected that because it's like Lilith Lilith core adjacent but that's the thing is I feel like it's these women who like like they all have good stories there's not a lot of like they're all just like hard-working, musicians that kind of made good solid rock and roll and kind of kept their heads down and just sort of had a career there's a lot of heart on there and see here's here's what, more than pink came up more than I'm happy with. But Queen and little have sorry go on but but so here's kind of my thinking on some of those those ones that we see a lot here on the list and you know you're going to have to put the list up somewhere some people can understand what we're talking about but you know the presence of heart. The presence of Fleetwood Mac The Presence of you know then generationally Alanis Morissette of Natalie Merchant. The thing is is that those were those. Women those artists really. We're really important in those times and places and obviously of continued to be in part because they were, women who were really singing about their own lives and their own truths and in particular in particular Christine mcvie's Christine McVie and Stevie Nicks their singles off of rumors. You know the reason for Fleetwood Mac Fleetwood Mac breaks in America is because Christine McVie. Is because of her songwriting it's her first singles and then the Fleetwood Mac songs that become like the most indelible than you know Rihanna. These are some of the first times that you could hear women singing songs that they wrote about their own lives on the radio sure so that's super important part really similar opposition interesting because it before that it was a lot of like Motown cranking at the singles and the in the Supreme singing it yeah or an hour at that time even you know it was Carpenters it was Roberta Flack and you know there were some of the other really big name women of the early 70s Carpenters were writing their own songs weren't they yeah I mean not really I mean if you heard Karen sing I mean it's it's. A lot of it was her brother in the snow that's why her brother wrote the songs she sang them the you know and, but they were yeah so so or you know there was some other women that you know obviously Carole King but even she was writing songs for other people she was writing songs for other people and and but people could relate to that but also you know this is very those were some of the things that were the first, what these are guess what I'm pointing out with Fleetwood Mac and heart is these are kind of the first rock Acts. With women singing original lyrics that they wrote themselves songs that they wrote themselves. Yeah there was nothing like Rihanna and before being you know what I mean that was that was a hole that was a brand new there had never been a Stevie Nicks Stevie Nicks was like the whole ass archetype. You know and then heart came really really fast on there, heels too so there was kind of these new these were like Stadium rock bands and the time which was even a new thing then. For rock bands to be doing entire Stadium tours yeah and that's that isn't that isn't really interesting point. But it doesn't necessarily have to do a lot with what we're talking know I really is an interesting idea but I think like that these word that these I think I guess what I'm trying to get at is that some of these women are really like kind of you know Alanis heart Fleetwood Mac some of these other artists that are on there why is Spice Girls on there you know. These are really women who were undeniably singing their truths and expressing themselves. Really don't lie and I think those are the ones to me you know when you're talking about Melissa threads and some of these other things you know Fiona Apple Zone here Sinead O'Connor Amy Winehouse is. You know we just think of these as being like the popular women of this. Era but the idea that the maybe the four people these are associated with their moms but I think there's something within maybe if people are classifying mom rock as a Sounder genre is its women, women who are really singing something personal really opening themselves up. So I the thing one of the points I wanted to make on here is that when you when you look when you're looking at the Gen-X people talking about their pain their moms and it's all those people were mostly saying things like Barry Manilow Elton John like singles artists, and, and so like soft music soft music like this the music that they that they were that was forced on them by the radio and it's like that unchallenging music Island John might be great example of that but Jones who's putting down wet leg is mom uses so many P I think it's because they're into wet leg. Like moms and those said this is Mom's now and so I think that's the reason the flan my data was that it was like music that was that was, because Captain and Tennille is also on that's the thing so I think that there's a lot so saying what leg is the Captain and Tennille of today that's so I mean I think that we can get away from that I think that's part of the conversation so I think that like older moms they listen to what was in front of them, they it was unchallenging music, they weren't going to the record store and trying to figure out like what Foghat is like it's you know it's unchallenging mail music, and then you've got the Fleetwood Mac's and heart and, votes for Stevie Nicks Stevie Nicks with like Madonna's mean she barely she wasn't really mentioned it's interesting that people that weren't mentioned in the group because the ones at the bottom are the ones I added The Last Don has everyone's music I think but she's but no one taught no one she I feel like Madonna is criminally under. Under loved but I think that when you get using your point that Fleetwood Mac and heart of the beginning of women singing from their hearts actually writing the songs of their lyrics women are able to listen to these songs and identify with them and actually feel them and that's, and then there's now it's going from like oh I like this song oh just the way you are that's a song that just I also love you just the way you are honey like you know that's how they enjoyed music before but then once he's women come out and start singing about their actual feelings and you've got you know Whitney Houston wanted to dance with somebody who loves her you know you've got Sixpence None the Richer on here to they want to be kissed Shania Twain even like in begin to like the 90s if you get like these Sheryl Crow the probably talked about her quite a while ago it's murder podcasts also made it on there too that was kind of fun it's the idea. That all of a sudden maybe they are going to the record store maybe this is why Barnes & Noble added records or music section was because women didn't record I bet you that that was part of the marketing plan of adding, music section to Barnes & Noble because I remember when that happened I was kind of a big deal when they started selling music I bet it was because records are too intimidating we need a place for people to be able to buy records but so record stores were gone way too but once Hollies are on here The Hollies are my mom's faves Lightfoot yeah I mean so yeah like it seems like okay so if we're going out for going to look at this here's here's kind of how I'm seeing this and by the way we did no pre conversation about this we're figuring this out in real time godspeed we're two Diet Cokes and it is. It's like what I see here is soft 70s. Mainstream 90s women singer-songwriters. Like primogeniture women in rock which is you know heart Joan Jett Janice. You know Patti Smith may you know that Carly Simon yeah so then you have that wave and then you have that. The the kind of anticipated 90 is not quite women in rock but a little bit more like Lilith you know. PJ Harvey Peter he's got she comes up quite a bit. And I think that's the moms of now saying PJ Harvey manners to them you know and then and some of that is on the also mixed in with 90s arm be a need a baker the you know Atlantis 10,000 Maniacs that kind of thing. And then on it Franco Beatles and bangles all the in their Ani DiFranco so and then the stuff that's beyond that. Is like very very mainstream early aughts like what like Matchbox oh yeah. Yes but I think that's all here's the thing I you get these artists for their no one's buying their records it is songs it's not they like, it's like now what they like Barry Manilow they like some Barry Manilow songs they tell me they like Matchbox toy gonna be like 3 a.m. and I am really only but maybe maybe maybe this is also people seeing their moms as just like maybe a kin to like the kind of early 70s soft rock Mama's like this is just what's on the radio, yeah you know saying it's like Gwen Stefani saying it's Red Hot Chili Peppers saying it's is the people like who were answering you know Doobie Brothers and we're telling all hands and and and George Michael of that era right yeah I so maybe there's like. Also how well do people know their moms well I and I think that is maybe also a very interesting thing because I mean that was the other thing I thought looking at this, it seems very like so much meat loaf so much meatloaf sorry I'm really just what's interesting is lizzo came up a lot. And not only did Elizabeth came up it was like yeah my mom's like weirdly into lizzo like that keeps like that was it and I feel like lizzo is 100%. Pure empowerment. Like it's pure empowerment and also showing like vulnerability and I in there anymore yeah and also I can say 100% my mom is totally into Liz oh my mom is really in the lizzo. Brandi Carlile Brandi Carlile I'm Joni I'm very into this resurgent and Brandi Carlile Carlisle's career because I feel like she's been so it's just like keeping her head down slowly making her way in the last two records of just been one of this is different conversant maybe this is real but is she on this list yeah she is okay is she on this list at um no okay these on at once if like you defined broadly. Mom Rock right now after doing this research it's a me man Feist. Stevie Nicks and slash Fleetwood Mac it is I mean if I truly want to like Define it not using this list at all of where is Fiona Apple and. And I think that it's Robin. Like for now Mom Rock like like what it actually is I think it's just like women finding their power you know I feel like there's just a lot more women, that are able to who are performing I mean quite frankly I mean we talked I think we talked with this one here on my podcast what three weeks ago where it was representation mattering and not seeing so it's like you know we didn't it wasn't until. You know like Madonna kind of broke through and kind of made it okay for some people to be more Randy and then I go who would be the big women that kind of broke through and like. Made things happen I think Rock wise. It is and this is going by like sales and popularity generally enduring popularity I think it is Linda Ronstadt oh yeah. Barbra Streisand has to get mentioned as well Barbra Streisand is not rock she is alert a different kind of Pop stratosphere. And was somebody that even my grandmother yeah so Linda Ronstadt is definitely so Linda Ronstadt as stat maybe this is because you know the adjacency to the Eagles. No she's the first woman to ever have like play first woman rock artist at headline a stadium to her really yeah. With the Eagles supporting and that's right that's right this is let you guys this is like my real field of expertise I've spent the last like five years researching on the ship for my book I think it is. I think it is that's right your have a book coming out called women who Rock why am I trying to talk about the school it's not a buck I literally made a show no my my book is called no God but herself and it's about women in music in 1975 so that Ivan like I know so much more about the Carpenters and I fucking want you I think it is you know really big picture. The women that really changed staff. I think it is in the like this order and this is this is not just rock but it's kind of balconies I think it is Linda Ronstadt. I think Johny in a smaller way because it's more recognized way later she's really recognized as a genius and a threat for sure but she's one of the first women that's talked about as being really truly an artist or a genius have you seen the David Geffen documentary. Not yet I had to tell you I watched it I loved it they give Joni Mitchell so much credit and I walked away from that realizing that the world she should have been so much bigger she got fucked oh yeah but also she didn't want to. She walked away from so much about she could have she could have gone that I know but I feel like that I mean Graham Nash was is that right is he the guy that she was with, I mean she was with a few different people at that time but like there's this like when she played together when she played Woodstock when he was like he played Woodstock and she whatever there's all this stuff anyway and she stayed behind because they were like this is like it's unladylike and you got to be on the TV tomorrow and tomorrow you're going to it's a whole thing but yeah Johnny should stay but you know she's quasi getting her do now but it's fucked up I think it's Joanie in a small way I think it's Patti Smith and big way I think it's Chaka Khan I think it's Donna Summer I think it is then. Kind of crossing over into the 80s it injured. Joan Jett to a little bit of a smaller extent she was I don't think yeah she didn't have a ton of but Pat Benatar so then it's really Pat Benatar Paths of first Pat's the first women shown on MTV. And that is like you know a giant bomb going off and so I think like you know and I think Stevie you know really one of the first rock archetype women so I think there's kind of this hole. Class of women that were seeing show up in here and then you have something that is. Maybe similar now so I think there's kind of like an archetype because I think I think you know lizzo as is mentioned there I think Randy Carlyle but even in fact that wet leg is popped up in here twice like. I love them like I saw them play at play a couple months ago and it felt like seeing The Strokes in 2001. Like it was it felt like energy it felt different it felt like the girls were in charge and the backing band was just a bunch of dudes that they were doing the heavy lifting it didn't feel like it. I like the idea of what leg being like a new but they're going to leave something maybe the archetype of. Mom Rock now if we're talking about wet leg if we're talking about robbing for talking about Liz 04 talking about a Brandi Carlile if we're talking about a. If we're talking about those kind of like the newer bands their kind of hold at a let mean we have to be Taylor Swift but shit but the thing is I think I think that's like a maybe a way that people. Have maligned her worries are records too. But also you know what is this also kind of connects with something that empowers was talking about when she was talking about how she didn't have a haircut because she doesn't have a child because she doesn't have a child then there's that there's she's just a complete. I would say like an anomaly but then America views Taylor Swift as like a forever child mmm. Is that what was that the point she was making maybe not but that's how I thought of it. We're really all over the place we're not necessarily though I mean I I mean I don't know but but but you know I think I think maybe. The changing. And evolutions of mom rock as we've maybe lightly discerned these different waves and relational waves is that like look at the okay if we if we looked at it is it is. People who are progressively more empowered hmm well I think also you know. I mean to be another reason why this is flawed is this is going I mean I'm a music person my friends are all music people like they all like music like I don't I mean I have met people where I'm like you know I'll mention a band like God I haven't listened to music in 25 years or more and it's like okay is that real like do you really not listen to music and it's like sometimes ask me it was like oh you guys on the music, it really kind of course and then some people like not really I'm more into gaming or whatever and I'm like really they just never music on like, I just found the radio it's like wow I'm glad you're still listen to the radio and is that a problem with Spotify is that the spot application where you have to like look for everything, in order to play you know like you define things in Spotify and I know that they produce playlist based off of new releases and other shit you've listened to but like. You know I mean that's a different conversation of like how streaming his head of the playlist of vacations ruined everything but I guess one of the things that I've noticed is just like doing weddings because obviously their parents there and it's like you know. I had a horrible moment last summer when I put on God what was it was some pop punk song like yellow card are like. New Found Glory or something something like kind of deeper pop punk like you know not the not the Jimmy worlds are the paramour paramour or some 40 or not somebody wanted yeah. What's the band that just got back together again and kick Matt skiba out of the band. Blink 182 and I put this pop punk song On and the parent was singing they knew every single word of it and I'm like what Bizarro fucking world is this I'm like oh wait a minute this is music that was like like that that woman's probably my age you know like or if her kid or their kid was super into that music. I mean like I know all you know the amount of lyrics that I noticed songs that I don't like that my children love. From various you know Lego movie soundtracks and such maybe it was from that yellow card, I don't know if Ocean Avenue was making it into movies and like Disney movies I just my point is is that I like to all of this is Yellow Card mom Rock it's like it's like yellow guard like that was thinking of trying to make a success of a Coldplay job what's interesting is Coldplay didn't get mentioned once. And is Coldplay dad Rock Coldplay is like the air yeah it's true it's just it is music for shopping. No one's no one hates a Coldplay song but no one loves a Coldplay song I have a theory that no one's favorite band is Coldplay. Like they are like. Like it maybe not anybody we know but I mean like dude they're like so not like United Center well I know but here's the thing is someone said to you and if this probably has happened to you like hey Jessica I got you VIP passes you can have the you can sit in the best part of Coldplay you go to that show. No I went you wouldn't you went to the Red Hot Chili Peppers yeah I mean what if you had a chance to bring your kids to see the RedHawks okay I guess if I was taking my kid I guess I guess maybe I know I don't think I would I have I have too many problems with. Post blood sugar sex Magik era there's one song that's really good though John Frusciante is back in the band that's what I know okay, I also love that that's happening now all of these bait all these guys are re coming back to their bands like John for skinny and the guy from Lincoln County for Shaun T say it again for Shanti for Shantae seriously. How did he say it from scant frisky any. I've been saying it wrong my whole life and no one's ever corrected you know it's the power I hold that's like you know and he's in the band with that guy Flay. That guy's got a lot of Charisma but like the guy from London blink-182's come back John Frusciante would you call them again for shaunt. Fresheners Roush for Shanti. Chianti for Shantae free Shanti bhushan okay so John Fox shit I love these guys are coming back to their bands because it's like they like leave it in the half, and then they get older and they're like I don't care anymore my beefs are stupid and they want to come back you know sometimes people sober up also nobody's making money off streaming also you know like big headliner bands are like literally may be the only people making any money in music anymore they're kind of the only people that can sell albums like why not get out there and, fucking I know I like it though I kind of like it's just burying the hatchet and coming back although then that kind of really shines a light on Lindsey Buckingham pitching his fit taking his ball and going home and having me be replaced by two people. Wasn't the whole let's not get into why Lindsey Buckingham quit I will say I did go see solo Lindsey Buckingham. Like a couple of years ago because the friend was reviewing the show and. There's a thing that he was doing through the show and because I'm a noticer I absolutely noticed it. Which is he started the show with his kind of Lindsey Buckingham you know as you would expect kind of a like a blouse like a kind of Victorian knee see I see him in a leather in a leather blazer, mmm I mean he might have had one on but it was off by the time I got there. And it was like maybe open to about the sternum he's playing guitar in a and then periodically we ain't going back again. One button no down he undid his own buttons he undid his own buttons but not all at once like it was kind of as like oh he's kind of just playing it off like he did it so that by the time he is getting to his. You know kind of the day new model of a show and he's doing Fleetwood Mac songs and women are screaming. His shirt is unbuttoned to the waist wow. Does he have abs now I'm is that is is that mean he's always been a lean man I don't know if this was a thing at the time. But now that I see celebrities with it on like whatever pictures Paparazzi pictures you sounded it looks like what's that thing where people get their fat Frozen CoolSculpting it looked like CoolSculpting it looked like you know how it's like when you see pictures of some of the like top-flight models who had like fake abs done yeah and then they get pregnant. And then you can see where the ABS were sculpted on the stomach it's kind of like kind of was like that there there really someone who I'm stealing this phrase from somebody else I'm kind of a weird. What is it like a neutral neutral Obsession like a value neutral obsession with the male face lift, and so I'd already had my sights on Lindsey Buckingham like having had work done yeah I find it so weirdly fascinating and like my new my other new I don't miss a favorite because it's that's not what it is is the guy who sings In The Goo Goo Dolls. Johnny Resnick yes I don't know how I pulled that out of my ass yeah it's because I secretly here's the thing Goo Goo Dolls I don't hear any other songs either, Ed when they come on the radio or when I'm in a grocery store in there inevitably on I know every word I'm saying it under my breath you like Goo Goo Dolls songs you don't realize it. I like the singles but that's because the because they were like a they're like a they're Coldplay they're cold and purple like Homeland because they're like they are they are exactly what they are. Which is like a New Jersey of fication of later error of Replacements records mmm. Admittedly they are from Buffalo New York again why do I know this you know what I mean like like they are the college town don't tell a soul. Hmm you know what I'm saying hmm like that and so I like that. I do have a little bit of like a like a brain stem because I once had a dentist who's like a very rock and roll dentist he's playing the Goo Goo Dolls as he was working on my teeth and he goes just a second and he you know like pulls his tools out of my mouth and air drums over my head. With the dental tools for that like Phil that's like three quarters of the way through Iris. Wow good all song so I'm kind of like traumatized Phoebe Berger is and Maggie Rogers do a beautiful duet of that song, and I played at weddings a lot how come they keep Rogers isn't on the mods and that's what I think Maggie Rogers if I hear and I think it's because I my people that I was going to were. Old rock people and people too cool for Maggie Rogers but she's not I mean, I don't think that your word is like cool too cool for Maggie Rogers I think that was not where their brains were going because I think of Maggie Rogers is kind of thing the Sarah Mclaughlin of right now, what was weird was that Sarah McLachlan was not mentioned I put her on at the end when I thought about her last night and that's the thing is I feel like Sarah McLachlan and the thing is is that, I think the idea of mom Rock and Dad Rock it's all cerebral and brainy if we're going to Define mom Rhonda we were going to try to find a dress but I think Mom rock also even though we have defined it as like you know women who are like speaking out for women or you know really being asserting themselves I think there's also you can see a full vein through here that it's like corny. Soft just feeling the corny and softness just feels those if you if you really want to go through this mostly male artists. And who how would you who would you who would you say Okay so the corny stuff Air Supply Traveling Wilburys not really but kind of I mean it's all just kind of like it's all just talking about the the the the the Human Condition are like the like can't like like, you cannot find out divorced at an America that doesn't have either a Traveling Wilburys, or possibly tin machine ZD hormonal because his machine in the fucking glove box yeah in the glove box 5 CD in their glove box okay so old Miata which all dads get when they get divorced. I mean that's okay you're not wrong by early true okay so we're talking about the corniness we got okay so American pies on here so Don McLean, corny I like that it's just reduced to Mere I do that was so important America what's funny is they put American Pie and I typed it in as American Pie without even like. Questioning whether or not it was Don McLean or not funny a little aside is that when I when I have doing a wedding and I hate the people and they will not leave me alone with there, they're like to making a million requests are there like being shitty I do what's called American pieing them where I play American Pie Pie all 11 minutes of it they can't resist to get into a circle, and sing the song and if I really fucking hate them I followed up with piano man because they get the same thing so they basically stand in a circle for 15 minutes singing a song and it just keeps everyone away from me. Piano Manning them okay alright so Barry Manilow corny Ellie Joel Billy Joel horny Belinda Carlisle I love her, I just love that you made the list Bon Jovi Bon Jovi blada Bon Jovi came up and I think this because like Mom's could like rock out to it it was it wasn't very it wasn't as like offensive as like pure hair metal like your poisons yeah I mean I think a bunch of you as being like all the really heteronormative it's like I'm a man and you're a woman and I'm going to give you a look at I'm I'm going to have sex with you and I'm going to leave you but it's going to be okay no it's like I'm gonna have sex with you because you're my college girlfriend and then. After a little while we're going to reconnect and get married like like it's like a like a, Guns and Roses is like the toxic masculinity of that and then Bon Jovi is like the kind of toxic Fidelity of that idea I love the idea of toxic Fidelity okay the Bradley over big my other surprise here only one Bonnie Raitt if there is nothing but it is definitely she's 100% mom Rock, did you ever listen to that song where she's like you know all my friend wants to do is have a baby in her times over and like I've got how do you not cry to that song even. When it's in the thrift store when if I can't make you love me. No the other one why can't I remember it next time oh because I was like if I Can't Make You Love Me is one of my that's in my top 20 that song Just destroys me anyway destroys a carpenter's kind of corny, Carpenters are deeply corny. Cat Stevens corny oh so kind of kind of dad Rock because he sings about being a dad yeah a Def Leppard. Not corny but definitely comes up it seems it seems like Def Leppard is maybe like your mom was in high school in 1983. I put Dixie Chicks and Dolly Parton that Mom Rock. Yeah Dixie Chicks are consummate yeah Zenda neubauten came up and I think that was just flexing to like act like they were. What's a goth mom filling in her but representation for her son Genesis. Because I think of I think I would say not corny I love mean don't get me wrong but I if you were to divide up Genesis into how it parses an Imam Rock and Dad Rock. You know I mean the parallel there is that Kate Bush. You know Peter Gabriel synthesis uh-huh ambushed ultimate mom Rock ultimate mom Rock consummate Genesis. Ultimate like Alzheimer dad Rock Canyon mhm Peter Gabriel mom's Aunt outs hmm oh yeah, moms and dads I mean I would say post Lamb Lies Down On Broadway I don't think the prog stuff is necessarily making it into the mom around I don't think it's making it a dad I think it's too complicated for Dad Rock George Michael. Mom Rock Hope ya in a sexy awesome way yeah right it's like it's like that goes with like V Anita Baker we see on here about like kind of quiet storm stuff Gloria Estefan made an appearance in here which I everyone's mom loves Gloria Estefan you know what though I played oh falling in love the other day on my radio show like I don't think it came into my heart and I'm like I'm doing this I'm going to play I'm gonna play this and it felt so good. Falling in love falling in love oh oh oh that song. Yes so good Hall & Oates oh Gordon Lightfoot corny yeah Gordon Lightfoot of real corny I was so it's like. I don't know but this is where I feel like that's where music is happening to you I don't think it's where people are seeking out though I don't and going any deeper than the egg no no one's trying to go further than Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald to me that says if Gordon Lightfoot is on there, maybe yeah maybe their mom has a Gordon Lightfoot tape. But you know her real favorite band is the roaches okay so what about Hall and Oates I think. I think a lot of moms who are like my mom's age loved Hall & Oates. And you know when I was little and I would see what's the one with the mustache that would be oats oats I thought that was my dad because I remembered that's what my dad looked like and he had moved away in like 2004 one of the best friends Amy and I were oats and oats for Halloween we're going to be Hall & Oates but neither of us wanted to be Hall so we were both oats and to this day it's one of my favorite Halloween costumes I ever had my favorite Halloween costume that I ever had one if I can get a photograph of that in the show notes. You should try my favorite Halloween costume I ever had was I think one of my most last minute and inspired I went as Christ on the cross with a full-size. Cardboard cross, and like a kind of very tight t-shirt same color as my skin okay oh my God little like the crown mascara beard and some chest hair and Stigmata hands the whole bit then flip flops where did you go. I went to Texas Ballroom. And I saw that Mahjong side project band sexual Vietnam and there was like six hundred people there which is how many people could be there when there was like it was really sold out and because my cross was so big I couldn't, get out by the end and so I had to be crowd surfed out mmm wow like a legendary Halloween like me into into a cave. I mean until I know like into the door because like the door I had to be like really crowd surf or like a distance is incredible but I will say my second-best one similar to you my friend and I were going to go Steely Dan. But then we just realized we just looked like dirt bags and I went to go see The Hold Steady with her, and this girl came up and she's like what the fuck are you doing here I can't believe the nerve of you to show up some girl I've never seen before kind of young and I was like what. And she goes oh my God and what she thought from like a distance was that she was there with her friend and that I was the friend's EX. Oh a man that I have fully past hahaha I will say I'm really really good at doing male drag. Yeah but also doing mascara chest hair hmm. I mean that's it I mean it's a gift head I mean I went to Art School we've really gotten off the top not really okay so Harry Styles I think his consummate right now Mom wrong hmm because we because I think we here's the thing I think that we all. Are very happy for Olivia Wilde and that she's an older woman with the hotness of the young hairy man Harry Harry Styles but, when I read that thing and I didn't go deep on it about like her leaving yeah with the salad and her husband I was just like oh that poor man is that like manipulative lost his mind but also let's say you are like real tied down in your family situation you're so desperate to get out and get like all that Harry Styles can give you and free you of a peristyle I don't want to I don't want her to go to a man where she has to bring him food and I know that's like a very I want, you don't like the idea of love you style of Olivia Olivia Olivia Wilde bringing food to Harry Styles yeah like I want him to be. Self-contained get a no damn salad so I want him to be like come over I am ordering you the cheese plate from hell and we're going to sit here, and eat like 10,000 calories of like little cheeses little delicious fruits I'm going to feed them to you like I don't want her to go in another situation where it's like where you're bringing someone proper where of fucking salad here's the thing Harry salad I guess my feelings on that I see what you mean like you want to book a purely just a sex or a equals I don't care what she's getting out of it I don't want I don't want it to be a caretaking think she's already got kids and this this man child who's laying in her goddamn driveway so it's so funny that you should say that because last night I was last night hung out with three new friends three new mom friends and we had like the best time like just like hanging out for ladies and I have this whole day with Jessica that's an embarrassment of like mess estrogen riches that I've got in my life for the past two days but at one point we put on we were going through this list and we were like. George Michael beloved George Michael and so she puts on freedom I'm and I literally she puts under Joseph Michaels freedom and I'm like God there is nothing you can't do to this song like this song, it's just like you're like getting shit done and this is what I said I go oh my God you can like clean your house you can fuck your man you can make some dinner and they're like you are doing. All shit for the patriarchy in your song where you think you've got a lot of Liberation and I was like oh my God and like when's like I can swim to it to the other side of Lake Michigan by myself I can go to the disc you were thinking of things to do to Freedom there were liberating and when I was thinking of things I would like wasn't livers were like I'm gonna do the shit out of these things I'm going to clean a house I'm gonna make some food I'm gonna have sex with someone and it's like everybody's just getting taken care of in those moments I mean I'm definitely getting to your body yeah. Yeah anyway moving on we're almost at an hour we need to like breakfast we got it we got it kills Kings of Leon is the Kenny Loggins of today so they cancel themselves out Kelly Clarkson I will say is like for all people, she is while she's not the burning rate of now I think she's for everyone I think everyone can love Kelly Clarkson think she's mom proprietary but I get the association because she's on daytime TV. Michelle Branch. Consummate mom Rock like it canonically Mom Rock plus she punched that man from the band The Face a black key yeah he's I don't support that. I don't think violence but I get the desire to put he has a very punchable face oh. Right I mean I mean he's got the most punchable face that you could ever wrap your head around he's boning is manager that's so in like also the power dynamics there two are pretty gross it's like you'll give them 10% and then and then another one there so you're one of hi the national now National is like Neil Diamond is also in there as well it's like. National is consummate dad Rock I I've never really like that man no I don't understand that in the corniness I mean Neil Diamond, I'm going to be okay let's just go right on down okay Gwen Stefani yeah if your mom is like our age but here's the thing with Gwen Stefani, was in a great band I mean like they were never my cup of tea but I can understand the Allure of No Doubt and all of her solo stuff has been pretty good until she started going with that guy that she's with right now that you can the country guy, I don't know her face looks crazy to me now which is really just a product of like. Society not being okay with aging women Olivia Rodrigo okay let's talk about Olivia Rodrigo I think. If if people think of that as being Mom wrong. And maybe it's like maybe yeah maybe their mom listens to I think because there's so much to me of like when I listen to Olivia Rodrigo I'm just like oh. This is this has all this sort of indicators of. 90s women in rock that I loved like sands sands like a breeders influence or something you know like it like. There's something about it to me when I hear it I don't there's there's no there's no, Sonic or emotional information in Olivia Rodrigo that feels new to me at all other than maybe kind of the mix of the album feels very right now and very you know like like, the production kind of headphone music I mean it's you know especially like driving driver's license like yeah that song is. I think that song is so good yeah it is I think I mean I think the record is strong but it's also like there's it felt so familiar to me. As a child of the 90s mhm but I feel like the message of it is not what we were listening to in the 90s know and I feel like I mean good for you is a song that I had to play a lot. And people were going nuts for it I would get like 80 requests and night for work until I played it and it's an angry song that is really like I don't know I just I feel like Olivia Rodrigo. I think we're I think the artist never elect are allowed to be like a lot more angrier and calling men on their shit in a way that we never really saw but. In what way is what Olivia Rodrigo is bringing to the table how much different is that than Alanis Morissette. Because I think Alanis Morissette's is coming from a place of like I want there's a lot of just just like anger and I want you to die and like you you made me feel something and now I'm embarrassed by it I kind of feel like that that's sort of the, the feeling I get from Alanis Morissette and Olivia Rodrigo is coming more from a place of like, I didn't we I really love you didn't you love me too and now you're able to do this to me I kind of feel like that's the it's more incredulous and Atlantis is more like a horny rage. Well it's more like like it's more to like I feel like Alanis is one-sided like we're together it was fine and then you fucked me over whereas living Rodrigo was like we had something and like you were just able to move along and I don't understand that like and I don't think we've really quite like the like it's sort of it's how they situate themselves as victims or not. But maybe being victimized by mail or not miss victim has a warp and I think it's more like, like you're not I feel like there's a dishonest like I think Olivia Rodrigo is felt like how could you say you love me and continuing this is really getting into a different place but in but like I think Levi Rodriguez is more like. We had something and you're not being honest with me when you are able to go and do other things like and Alanis Morissette's like you are one, you're you're the kind of guy I'm like almost like this like you're the guy right now that someone else into the exact same thing to me so I don't know it I'm I'm not making any sense here up with that but I understand what you're saying but it's like Olivia Rodrigo and. It is not like an evolution on Alanis it's like it's like kind of something that is more. I think that we as women I think it's only in the last like I feel like the women now are getting a much better. They're being given better information on men's roles in but before it's kind of like that whole conversation about what was the the study that just came out that said that men aren't having sex and the did you hear about this. No so there was a there was a study that came out that said that that Millennial men are having sex less than any group before them. And it's you know and you know a lot of is blaming on the pandemic and like not being able to afford to live. You know away from their parents and things like that and that there's a lot of anger built up almost like women owe me sex and no one's get the whole in cell movement that's kind of coming up and what was my point. That Olivia Rodrigo's the lattice Morissette for an in Cell World well more like women will one of the argument that they're making why women aren't having sex because women are not accepting, shitty Behavior at the same way that they used to, like that we that like younger women are like you know they'd rather just hang out with their friends than be with a guy that's going to like you know be shitty to them and that's I mean that's not all when I'm sure there's still some bad, guys that get to get away with bad behavior but that's becoming less and less of thing and so Olivia Rodrigo being like, we hung out we had a good time with you you just walking away can ghost me like what the fuck is that I feel that it's more about standard and that's a lot of it Taylor Swift writes about that's a lot of like what's I mean like Selena Gomez like you know a lot of you know Liz Liz oh definitely you know especially in this new record and it's just I feel like that is the changing of the female artist. The messaging that they're putting out there the things they're singing about. Is definitely helpful in creating a better idea of what Mom rock is going to be for a future generation of moms. Thousand credible wasn't you just summed it right but I really okay so all of this is to say is that women. Have been given way better fodder in the last 30 years of music and. When I think of mom Rock now I have a definite like it's interesting going through this list and I know this is a list of Mom's the bands we think of mom Rock and I'm sure if I said give me a list of dad rock bands the list wouldn't be this long, I actually don't think that list would be that long I bet if we did a the same thing like what's Dad Rock I bet it would be the same 20 bands said over and over and over again and I bet you if I took out repeats in here there be at least 200 artists, yeah and I think that that speaks to mom's or more I mean there's a lot of different this is a very so I think it's sort of to me. Not to sitelock on but like this idea that women are, you know and undefinable you know have have have many different variations and versions and you know look at the cons fact the cons fucked up but you know that that. That we often sometimes see. Men and the way that they are in the world as being really finite kind of firm and to me I think that does sort of looking at this list and how it really is rather expansive and idea that like. Ed maybe moms can be more different, things well I mean true but I also think that I think if I think if we did the same experiment with met with men Rock I think it would be you know tool and Metallica and guns and roses and Steve Winwood. Steve Winwood for like Dad Rock what's the other one. The other Stevie see top sure yeah. But it would be it would all be kind of the same genre this spans this this runs from metal to classical to, Noah Barton yeah OMD yeah I mean this is a really amazing, and I feel like that's what it is it's like well Mom right can't be defined if I was going to have to go down with it would be it would be strong women who know themselves who can get their message across in a way that's Universal and also personal the same time whereas men is just going to be like aggression and beer. And solos and very competence olives very competent as or if we're being very reductive about what the messages and we're going to be well Jessica thanks for being on my podcast twice, quite twice in a season I'm really glad that you are here to help me pull this out and I don't know if we really did anything of any kind of intellectual import but you know what somebody's going to Kabul 27 Stellar minutes out exactly alright guys well thanks so much we'll see you next week bye. Thanks for listening to all up in my lady business it is written by me Mary nisi, it is produced by Christina sorum Williams and Amelia Ruby with softer sounds, it is recorded at the toast and jam offices in Logan Square in Chicago, you can find resources and links from this episode in the show notes at all up in my lady business.com, if you enjoyed this episode and you did Smash that subscribe button and if you're the kind of person that reviews things on the internet please rate and review us wherever you listen to us it really does help people find us follow us on all of your socials and don't forget whatever you do this week do it with your whole ass thanks for listening. Music.