All Up In: Music Writing, Sexism in the Scene & Sobriety with Jessica Hopper

Music. Welcome to all up in my lady business I am your host Mary nisi on this podcast all explore the fine line between having it together I'm losing your shit. Here I share my journey as an entrepreneur a mom a wife a DJ and randomly a beekeeper. I have no shame and no filter except the ones I use on Instagram. My stories of resilience a little structure and a lot of resource Wellness can show you how to take those same things and live your life with your hole. Music. So everybody thanks so much for for tuning in today I've got the wildly just normal Suburban mom, Jessica Hopper here it's just a mom that lives in the suburbs which is what she told me to describe her as but once I looked over her CV here. Different situation altogether. Just do it Larry just do it just get into the Jessica Hopper is a director producer and author based in Chicago Illinois, in a career spanning more than 20 years Hopper earned Acclaim as a provocative Fearless music journalist before moving on to directing and producing documentary documentary work the dock you the dairies I got very drunk before we started this most recently the four-part docu-series women who Rock, released this past summer, and she's also executive producing a feature documentary on Lilith Fair which I'm very curious about I can't talk about it yet can't talk about it yet. But we could talk about why could you know why you did it I don't want to know I don't need to know all the Paula Cole details that could come out of this but you've written for GQ Rolling Stone The New York Times the guardian l, Chicago Reader Village Voice the Trib Punk Planet long time Punk Planet columnist Jessica Hopper, I think you forgot to put hit or quit it in here and then you were the music consultant for This American Life uh-huh you were the editorial director at MTV News briefly senior editor at Pitchfork and rookie. And you've written several books yeah and then I'm also, one of the editors for the American music series at University of Texas press and you just provided me with a bunch of books that yeah we're really good ones we don't three books about country music coming out tomorrow by through different women, tomorrow yeah they literally come out to mess up Tobar forth for anybody who's listening to this in the future well thanks so much for coming on thanks for having me Mary I was remembering the first time I ever saw you oh yeah what was that I think it was very early Cat Power show does this sound right that would be right at. Shuba no no no no no it was a place Jeff Tweety's wife ran it. Lounge acts yes didn't we I thought I saw you dead I mean I saw a cat power at Lounge acts that's the first time I ever saw you yeah I'm was it clearly memorable I don't know why I don't remember I don't remember the show except for that cat power was wearing jeans and I remember I met you mhm. Kind of side of the stage yeah I mean that all tracks that would be a place where I would be I was at that show I'm ever Lounge Acts. Barely yeah those were the was so far away and I didn't I didn't drive I didn't have a lot of driving friends and I'm really I never taking buses to Lounge acts a lot yeah let me not my scene guy just didn't because I didn't know the city yet that was very early, that was very early in my okay so let's rewind a little bit here so Jessica you moved here from Minnesota right now no, from Los Angeles Angeles so where I lived for a few years but a group in Minneapolis so you're very close okay so you grew up in Minneapolis and you graduate from high school. Yes and then where do you go to Los Angeles to do what. Beebe be with like a I mean I don't know I thought I was going to work in the music industry hmm I also had a shitty boyfriend was heading out there to try to be with ya, the things we've done for shitty boyfriends yeah and then I. Well because I had had all the Music Drops there were the half in Minneapolis you know I rock it like it record stores Etc code stores at work during the Summers I work in the mail room at this label amphetamine reptile oh yeah. I did a fancy and I interned at like

17 you moved to LA and then I turned 18 not too long did you go to college, no you never went to college. No I thought I thought I might but also I was like a Montessori n' you know I learned by doing hmm and I learned by doing badly I learned by. Like I just follow my interests that's always what I've done but I thought you know I thought I would maybe go to college and I was thinking about going to read college or I better bring one there yeah and a friend of mine who was a little bit older, she said only reason go to readers to learn how to take drugs better and I was like that's not my scene so you know I did I thought I was gonna like make videos or do photography or something like that and then I got drunk on my 18th birthday and had all my camera stolen because I'm a moron hmm and I have a little tiny little tiny tattoo on my neck, that like literally was turned around getting the star that's like the size of a pencil eraser down on my neck all my cameras got stolen as they go okay I guess I'm not going to. Dear photography hmm that's interesting you just like lost your camera so your guests done with that well they were all my they were all my dad had given me, all of his old Nikon's, yeah that my dad and my dad was a photojournalist so it was like it was like it sucks it was just it was just fun it was just like before traumatic like I can't even regain it because of no and I was like I guess I'm just going to work in the music industry then well that's that's always a great plan B always a great place to be to work in the music industry so you moved to LA to be with a crappy boyfriend and you did lash music industry stuff and then I start doing publicity a little bit more seriously that's like what I wanted to do and so when I was 19 I started my own company, they called it was called hyper PR but I had also worked for some other people and places but, like the first the first client I had was for. The the last trench mouth record oh how fun yeah so my clients were. I was working like the I want to say like the first dismemberment plan record and like some stuff on skiing, so that was like candy machine and trench mouth and candy machine I've had and then I was working with some in feta mean reptile bands like the cows and Nashville pussy yeah. Like very 90s just well yeah and and just worked with some of those bands and a couple Discord bands and and you're doing this from l.a. yeah I was doing this from my house okay. I had a fax machine and a computer and a dial-up modem I could not be stopped and then I was also doing my. Fanzine and sometimes playing in bands and stuff and then started working with a lot of Chicago bands. Braid promise ring and Joan of Arc and doing PR for them yeah unlike a just a lot of Chicago and DC bands and I never got to go see them very play very often so I moved. I moved to Chicago after visiting here very briefly and. And then I just did everything here. And but I was very excited to be here because there was like a real all ages scene yeah and I could go to shows all the time. And I didn't need a fake ID yeah yeah and it was and there was trees here. There's no trees no life so there's palm trees which technically are like not Trace yeah and they're not native to there either no it's like very fucked up so you move to Chicago how old are you no chair. Under age 22 said that would have been I would have been I mean I think if I guess February 97 so I had just, turn 21 okay so you move here and you're doing PR. And a fanzine and your fancy hitter credit but yield editor credit the illustrious I remember there was it's so funny you like the things you remember like I remember there was there was like a list of. Like it was like Terms of Endearment for Jessica or something and then one of them was a night at the Opera, and I think of that we have the we had we would have a slang page and people would send in slaying and made up words and try to go Canada to take off, okay kind of like the the the the the receptionist for subpop that you made a very much grunt very similar lexicon and some of them did take off, some of them did take off which ones. Ott for over the top oh which was then later a favorite of Paris Hilton's I don't know women that's like the direct sure direct line from Hit It Liz Armstrong was the innovator of that one taking it back to another, earlier time and Chicago History but yeah night at the Opera so now whenever I see that album I always think of you, okay and also it like when your name gets said sometimes I think I'm not at the Opera, there we go yeah so it's like the the ways that these things kind of live have taken their own lives yeah and so then I so I lived here and I did a fanzine and I did PR and I kept doing that in. Till I was 28 so another like not quite another decade but in the early 2000's early 2011 post 9/11 yeah and. And I just actually just had to do my, my older child's 911 I remember like three minute thing and this is the funny thing is that 911 all these bands that I worked with were like on their way to cmj and so shiner some members of this band you know we're staying with me and 911 yeah so we woke up and we were like and I had this weird roommate at the time who had like a big white leather couch he was like just a total like friend of a friend of a friend of like, Facebook mind like Normie person and so we had all these people in band sleeping on the floor and. And then we all watched it on this white leather couch in the sky this giant giant giant TV so I got to the senator from Kansas City yes okay. But yeah so whenever I ran into those guys it's like kind of like your that's times with you like member 911 you're on your part of my 9/11 story I was waiting tables at Wishbone and like people were coming in I was like Hey trains planes just flew into the World Trade Center like oh whatever anyway my tax. Whatever they think I think that I'm like part of their 9/11 story of a server that was trying desperately to tell them that 911 was happening and. So strange anyway so you okay so you're doing PR so what was it like to be a young lady in PR in the late 90s early 2000s. Um I really. I liked being able to make my own job and hours and work for myself my previous experiences. In working for other people per se like where you have to go to a place a W-2 job yeah like a normal job. Those are not my thing. I did not have one of those kind of jobs from the time I was 19 times like 38 so you didn't have a W-2 until you were 38. Yeah wow I asked for a job at Pitchfork and I got one I'm being and I kind of feel like for a music journalist like. But they have this man who is making this magazine there and I was like and he kept calling me asking me for like advice or input or like whatever like give me whatever you know like ideas that you have and I was like I never call. Anybody and just be like hey just give me an idea yeah it's like if you're calling me for a fucking ideas baby. Yeah that and said then instead of a just called his bosses and I was like. This man that you've hired to do this as no fucking idea what he's doing I would like to propose that I replace him. And so they're like okay make a little like proposal for what you would do with the first leg 50 pages of the magazine and I did. First 50 pages of the website this when I was a pitchfork my sort of initial on trade I was as. The senior editor for their short-lived print magazine. I don't even remember their short lives Prince likes went for like not quite three years. Okay and so you that's what you worked on with the magazine at first and then they're like we can't just have you work on a paper magazine you have to like also. Work at the website and I was like okay I guess so so just writing reviews and no I was a senior editor and I took over this part called the pitch, and made it very like are bad. Okay that was there and brought in writers like carvell Wallace and, honey from Turkey band Dorian Saint Felix who's now the TV critic at the New Yorker and a bunch of people that wrote for rookie and. Bunch of bunch bunch of folks like that so so okay so we went from PR the early 2000s to Pitchfork editor what was in between those two things and well towards the end of doing, so what was it like to work in music at that time right yes what you mean because I feel like that was it was sort of the it was like the end of. The radio era so to speak it was kind of like both of everything being online yeah that really as we say disrupting things were really changing it was weird and exciting. It was. Fucked up and upsetting was fucked up and upsetting I think the way seeing that there was definitely going to be people who were like gonna get left behind in like a kind of a digital divide. You know whether that was fanzines our fans and culture whether that was weeklies and all of these things you know greatly impacted things whether it was. Um just how streaming and at that time it was mostly like leaks and stuff yeah acting things I remember the first time that I saw. Animal Collective Lake on a big stage they're headlining the metro and the record wasn't out yet but that was like a big leak of that time and everyone knew all the words and that was the first time I remember going to a show going this records not out and everybody knows every single you know note of it was this Merriweather Post Pavilion was I feel like that was the one that the one maybe before then I think it probably was the one that had no is sung tongs. Okay that was one before that one yeah. I don't even know how I remember the name of it because you did PR for them know maybe you were a bigger fan than you thought. Yeah so so yeah so the digital Gap because digital divide like when that when you know I remember like the first time I downloaded Napster and I'm like I don't think I like this, because I was a tactical person I like for sure but also it was like oh I don't have to pay like import prices or like, one totally random song that I've heard I'm going to spend the next six days six days having it randomly downloaded at a very low bit rate you're on LimeWire but also like around that time I was, you know I was teaching I was, and it was an exciting time to be DJing it was like the very start of like wow I can just bring an iPod. Holy shit you know the Rudy Jane. Like you know everywhere from like the opening of the Puma store to like Coke parties. Like cocaine or Coca-Cola know like like I mean that's what I would gather what was happening there I was I didn't do those yearnings but you know,

00 in the morning and everyone still raging and there's like a certain tenor of fights happening then you know it's a coke party I actually never, I never I know me neither it's not my thing I know I don't really like the resident straight edge person yeah you are you've been famously sober since I've met you, yeah this was it your 18th birthday that sent you over the edge no it was right after my 19th birthday, I'd gone out drinking with some British journalist so I didn't know where like literally career alcoholic and I was like ha ha ha I can to keep up yeah oh yeah chinks and I basically, it was like my body exploded and then also it was like the kind of throwing up where you're like making a deal with God like if you can make this stop I'll never drink again yeah and I kept my end of the bargain well and that's I mean but I have to say like for you to be sober at a timing. That's takes I mean it takes a lot of balls I think but also as so many people I knew had had died from drugs and then also I was in a band with two women who were in AAA, and I would since I didn't drive it was like if I wanted to do anything with them at night it was like. 80% of the time I had to go sit through like an open AA meeting what the hell is this just like a band was playing with some girls and LA. Who not live anymore geez yeah it's okay. You know I mean that's an ancient Nation that's their nature of addiction yeah well and you know especially when like the rock scene it's like, you know there's a lot of addiction that runs through it but also just like socially like yeah I mean everybody I knew. In l.a. at a certain point where people who are. In recovery thank God and some of them lived in some of them didn't but at that time it was like I had never really been around. I've been around oh god I've been around people were like crazy fucked-up and a lot of people that I love to were you know terrible addicts who took their own lives or you know OD'd or whatnot, people looked up to and and being around people who were in a. And the way that they lived their life like it literally I can barely wrap my brain around like spiritual Concepts but how they were and the joy that they had was very. It was so cool to be around it was really inspiring to be around the energy of the artists and the musicians like but just people who are sober yeah yeah like people who were sober. But it's yeah I mean done and like and I just hadn't. You know especially growing up in Minneapolis where there was just such a drinking culture and then later drugging culture. Being around people who are like really alive. To how they felt really aware of how they treated other people really held themselves. Accountable and and and were in these sort of practices of accountability with each other, you know through the twelve steps and sponsorship and all of that. It was like really I mean it was just really like oh wow this is cool like you were a people are very alive when you got an example of. Being sober and still maintaining like artistic license and still being a vibrant that and I feel like that gets lost I think that the stories aren't interesting to people who are still you know and the other thing too was I mean by virtue of being a la it was like you know meetings there you would see people who were like. You know truly iconic musicians or you think Anthony Kiedis wandering in, you know I'm not here to bust a base anonymity po idea like I said as he talks about it no yes I did that I absolutely saw him at meetings routinely but the funny thing was is so because I didn't, if we were going to have band practice after one of their meetings. Lake it was such a pain in the ass to come get me I just had to go with them and I was like you know I but I was just someone who'd like quit drinking, on my own volition it wasn't like you know but like I was like I could definitely see like how this could go again I'm very sad too bad mad. Dreadful way and I'm just gonna stop now and I didn't think you know I mean I'm 40 I turned 46 very recently. So that's 27 years. That I haven't had anything harder than checking epidurals for having my kids but it's still in a way. Do you have to have a good habit that stayed, yeah well I mean and it's one that I think it keeps you I mean it kept you sharp it keeps you like you know that's one of the things I think about a lot with my own drinking is like how many how many cool things I was at that I don't remember, play now and on your episode and a good thing about not remembering. The I mean I guess the benefit is if you can't remember the Obama. You know the thing in the park thing in the park I don't know what I'd like what was it it was election night election that's right but like can't you just remember like this sort of indelible like over a crying yes I remember the feeling of it but I just I don't I wasn't a member like member McCain coming on the screen and consent and doing his concession speech that was how it started and it was like oh shit oh shit is McCain on your cuz he's conceding it was I mean I remember I remember elements of it's not like it was a complete blackout it just I just wasn't thoroughly present for it which is like it's just a bummer to and. You know that was one of the things that I really I really appreciate it and I identified with on your previous episode not to be like this like total, like hermetically seems like we only discuss what's happening on this podcast on this podcast like a leg over area like a weird celebrity podcast me but you know I mean I think when I think about. Not drinking an advantage to not drinking. You know it was also the other side of it was like the loneliness of not drinking early on because you know going out to the rainbow or whatever. And. Like the excitement of kind of being new in town and like meeting new people and stuff and then realizing after like a few weeks like all the people where it's like yeah let's start a band man and then it's like oh no they just hang out at the rainbow every night talking about starting a band. But I actually want to start a band and I also have the time to start up and I have

00 when yeah and and you know what I did it was like I filled that loneliness with. Working I worked like 70 hours a week through most of my 20s doing PR doing PR, you know like the real like fucking labor a bit because I had all these touring bands I made like no money I wouldn't charge I track people so little yeah I mean that's we don't understand our Value Plus it's not it's not punk rock to ask for money everything's dude dude I charged this is going to be funny so the. First few months that I worked with the promise ring only charge them $125 a month. I know it's like kind of sad because I was like well I'll try to people what they make for like one show and I think I had a really under yeah I think of promise ring could afford a publicist they were getting more than $150 to show the kind of weren't still because also is like you know they're playing it like internet cafes and Santa Ana California it was very very early days for them anyways but but you know so I did that for a couple years and then after I was like I need to like. You know just make some different friends or like you know like once I kind of got to know Chicago Morin and started to find other people and girls to hang out with and whatever but I was really, it was really kind of found my first few years here at brilliant a Cloister of of like hard heart drinking and I didn't. And so just I just worked a lot to not deal with that and so it was like so that meant I was very regularly putting up my magazine a couple times a year you know editing the whole thing with you know maybe the help of my friends they are some of the random friends I was. Maybe playing in bands now and again nothing that was like playing more than a party or something as in like a laptop and you know doing all of these things but that. But it was moving toward was it removing more towards the journalism side of thing well what started to sort of happen was like so I had started playing in bands and maybe even touring some, I was like a fill-in bassist for a post mile marker project and and I had started to feel like. Why am I putting all this energy into these men's the Arts the sundry Arts of men mhm. Especially in a scene where I don't feel very. Male I just I just was starting to feel really alienated by it like it was sort of. You know I mean I feel like my whole life is like a gradual you know waking up you know having more clarity about like what's around me and how I'm participating in it and you know that Dawning awareness but that I had I had written. I had written this. Piece called emo where the girls aren't yes that is still probably the other than maybe like our Kelly stuff that I reported on a road. It's kind of the thing that people tend to know me for still but I had written that and it was the first time I'd ever written an essay and you wrote that for what, Punk Planet okay and take me about 18 months but in part because it was like it just started with a feeling you know is like I was at the fireside sometimes five nights a week and he was going like. Where are you know. What are the girls doing here like what what is my role here what's her role here and why are the only five of them why is it me Mary nisi Claire it was on a previous episode you know and like the same handful people yeah. And none of us are on stage and well it's because representation matters and there was no one on stage to show us I mean like I think about like it because of me on the radio and I play all these bands and just there's so many bands with women in it that are just awesome they're not just like like the Huggy bears and like the bands that were like kind of shambolic and kind of you know like kind of just doing what they could to kind of just be up there like there's these legitimately amazing now that Huggy Bear wasn't great but no my high school my high school wish was to be a Huggy Bear roadie not not in the band no just the Roadie for the mass I would have ruined by joining the know you they were but they were the first people to ever sent me mail tell her to quit it that's weird that I should pulled them out of my ass of all the bands that I would see maybe it's not that the universe made me say it but but like yeah that it was just like so the so my slow alienation from punk rock. Was definitely happening. And and of course there was a gendered element to but you know it was like I was I really identify with right girl but I didn't necessarily know about like. Kind of you like a practicing feminist into also around this time. I read Bell hooks For the First Time battle and I was that'll change your mind yeah well and also I was like kind of just living with so cheaply all I did for a few weeks was just read every Bell hooks book that I could find. And I was like. My Plum what was the what was the galvanizing take away from Bell hooks that change the trajectory that it was like I mean one it was like oh I've never had an original thought in my life. Do you know what I mean like like reading reading my feminist for mother's was like I was like oh I have this thought all the time and I've never been able to like, put words around it you know I wrote about music I didn't write about feminism but that it was like. It's just it's just put such a fine yeah but I mean on so many of the ways that I felt. That were kind of and I know this sounds really strange because it was like I was someone at that point who was already known for having. Kind of a voice yeah like punk rock feminist voice but that I just hadn't read her I hadn't read and read work and and it just really made me see the ways that I was. Within These hierarchies and just were you calling yourself an honest oh for sure okay I've been calling myself a feminist since I was I don't know probably 14 or 15. It just has such a I feel like that was a word where I kind of went through phases of calling myself one and being against it you know like because it was it was so it was so. It was a bad word for some people but also it was just really incentivized within music world that. That everything that was cool was was aligned with men mmm, 30 you know and wasn't lined with young women having voices it wasn't aligned with. Other people who are marginalized Within These spaces it was really about all the all the Hallmarks of like white boy cool and and a very white masculine Cannon and I guess I just reading all these things really made me understand more deeply. The sort of systems around me and what I was participating in without even thinking and in a way how much I had acclimated in a scene where. It was. Patriarchy it was just an end and how how well I have learned to even Thrive one of the ways I was driving was that I was of service to all these men some of which who are like powerful and it was cool labels and they were playing at the cool venue and I'm sure that you're being told all the time like you're so like you know you're not like other girls yeah and that was the whole thing that was the whole thing to keep us apart from each other, and and and in competition that there was only room for a couple girls maybe, and I be yeah you were one of the cool ones I was the like I was like a like a hey guys I'm cool too I want to be here too because I was into all of it but like there was this marginalization where it was like well there can be one girl and you're allowed to be in this space but only if you kind of. Um don't challenge any of this status quo, and the only way to possibly challenge the status quo and stay intact as like if you were in relationship with powerful or beloved man, I remember I was in a band I was at a dated a guy that was in a band and I got a lot of people who are only nice to me because the guy was in a band then once we broke up it was like I had died, it was like a ghost and in that moment it was like wait a minute so you don't talk to me now because I don't. Sleep with this guy anymore yeah and it was a very real like oh so my my adjacency to power May Arab you know someone cool is the only thing that made me seem interesting, it's it was really. It was like a continual waking up from them and it's still is I mean I really think about this this too because so many of the women who, have really become my friends like my new friendships in the last couple, years or maybe since having kids or people that I knew from the scene but we were. You know kind of pushed away from each other because because it was like. You know only one woman can survive yeah it's like a siloed thing the women were siloed and and and that. You know that that was absolutely intentional because if all the women were talking. Then you know who the rapists are then you know who's like ripping people off then you know who's you know. And asshole to your friend you know who's got VD you know like wow this that ever thought about that, but that but that's totally true yeah that it was like we were you know I wasn't supposed to be friends with Claire because our boyfriends were. We're friends. And so and it would have been like it was like too much cop summer we could have corroborated you guys broke up then there'd be a weird thing but it was more like corroborating and I also feel like there was an almost a hierarchy of the girls where it was like you know like I'm going to cool their boyfriends pants were or how cool they were and like I would like Bettina Richards you know like yeah buddy yeah it's like. It was beyond gender she yeah like Bettina Richards was like this person where I was like she like I don't even I'm not or like Kiki a blonde like people that are like so, like women that men would say that they saw it a show yeah. I thought it was like that was like a thing yeah and I'll it was so was like that level cool and both of those women were also with people who were in really successful bands and they had their own, you know kind of Marty come here at any rate my point is that there were these women that were like these untouchable. Like that I would that I would never even try to be friends with even though we probably had more in common then yeah you know know and I think and I think you know I think that's really one of the things I have both. You know whiteness and patriarchy and obviously patriarchy ultimately you know upholds whiteness right that. This idea of kind of being in isolation and not needing other people I think is really, like that tenant that was the way that that was kind of put forward even in a scene that was like as collaborative and Collective as like the Chicago rock scene of like the 90s and aunts when we were coming up. Still there was very much this idea of like. I don't know people people just being certain people were very I don't know how to back this up. Even in the music scene when we were coming up which there was so much collaboration and so much crossover and so much as staff and people could really move freely between scenes when I think about it now there's really just men. Is really just men and that there were spaces and ways where women could participate. And queer folks could participate. Even that was questionable yeah not mean but that's like and it was and it was spaces that were a lot more informal it was DJing parties it was facilitating, you know shows it was being a booking agent was being a you know a publicist it was being the working at a label it was upholding I mean I think about the work of these men I ran the largest vinyl fair in the Midwest for 10 years and it was such an anomaly it was like you know like. It was it was all men there were like maybe two women that would have tables at those and, they would always feel like you run the best show like that's the best organized one you always think of everything and I'm like that's because it's a woman that's running it yeah like I'm I'm just more detail-oriented and I'm going to try to wait it just try to find ways to make everyone feel as comfortable as possible well I think I think and I'm not trying to be like biologically essentialist here but I think. That's very much the way that women or. Socialized is to one of the ways that we can really that our work is is allowed to have value. Is by holding up, the work of men and so Brown the time that to get this back to the original question around the time that I was like 28 29 I was like I can't even those mostly by that point working with like a lot of women's bands I was working with the gossip and a race of Radha and. And just some an Adele and I had even played in her band really really drummed so poorly in her band but a lot of heart, he quit the tour after like four days he Adele no doubt No Doubt, who's in the Dell little she was up kill rocks okay that makes more sense that makes more sense yeah I do, if I played in Adele's band would be on my back up yeah right but the that I just couldn't I just couldn't. Back burner my own dream anymore and then the funny thing that happened was I was like okay I'm going to go. I'm going to go try to write like freelance and Kiki for mentioned Kiki hablan had reached out to me was like you should write for the reader when you're done doing PR, because camped about it's like to yeah did it well it's like they're always out of control yeah and so I was like okay I'm going to be done, and I pitched a couple places and did a couple things and it was like the ground raised my feet and people kept being like Oh yeah we were just waiting for you to be done. And it was like. You know up until that point was like two years of just absolute like Soul quaking Taro can I do this can I do this and the first piece that I wrote got nominated for an award which is the first time first and only time that ever happened for anyone who work ever there's no Awards there's not a Words and Music Store lets them what was it it was like the midwestern Arts Press association's I mean like yeah I didn't win, but I was nominated and what was the forza for this it was for a piece where I had gone on Warped Tour. Oh I remember that and and the the expanded version of that is the most recent. Recent edition of my book the first collection of criticism by living female rock critic now on for our stress Ruru can I let second edition so I have to I want to ask what maybe just have it this now because I had it like that that name of that title of that book, the name of the title of the book the title of the book is a bold fucking declaration and it's true clearly one of the book came out, the first came out in 2015 may have 2015 and is now and then came out again. Last year now yes it does make a difference given last three years it was yeah it was. So is its in a second edition with a with a major publisher was it a collection of was it was it was stuff that just been on any publication and just rebuilt yeah and it was it was. It was it was. I don't know it was what I thought I could pull together at that time and the funny thing was is I had just it was it was kind of a frat process putting it together. Because I didn't I don't really have a sense of permission that I could. Like legal permission are you didn't feel like you could like spiritual permission oh so you was like just you like not believing that you're allowed to do that a little bit like I felt I felt like it was a little bit of, I knew it was a little bit of a punk move yeah to have a collection but then at the other time it was like you know it was very like you know of two minds. We're part of it was like I was like people have been asking me this for forever and to put together a book of a collection of yeah and I had had a lot of work. You know anthologized in the best music writing you know it's like I'm literally have me and Grill Marcus are the two people who are most anthologized in the best music writing and play cheese. And I was you know I'm like I love ground I'm like what like 40 years younger than him or something you know like, and I was getting it like every single year and I had been a punk plant calmness forever and I'd done all these things and I just been writing, forever and people kept being like Oh can I you know it's just and we're using asked to write specific things or we just look I'm going to write a, you know or was it I mean I pitched things and I got assigned things but I mean I was a real fucking Hustler you know weeklies all Weekly's did not pay very much and so I had to write a lot, I'd write like ten thousand words a month wow so I wrote all the time and I pitched a lot of things and and you know very fortunately, or in right at the course of writing for the reader that I learned how to write criticism rather than just Full Tilt being on something yeah full-tilt Boogie drive-bys you know like just open fire on the record where to be like they had some good points but here are the bad points it yeah that mean where it was just like what's the big idea and I started to be able to be someone who had a big idea about things so anyways you know I I started I started writing I'd been writing. Full-time for more than a decade and so then further proof it asked me to do. An anthology was like okay I want it to be you know they're just do a book, could I do an anthology and then I was joking about the title and you know they were like oh no no you have to stick with that as the title because the thing was is that I had been pitching people in this idea Publishers editors different people would want to work with me over the previous 10 years. And they kept saying things like well you know there was only this this one woman. Who had an anthology or like did you know it was just like people are like oh it's just too soon it's too soon you can't do this and I was like too soon to have an anthology. Or like that there wasn't they would say that there was two not precedent so they'd say there's not precedent what they meant was there's not a woman who's done this, and I was like what about can't you be the woman well that also it's like dude who is someone fucking telling Chuck Klosterman he can't do this shit, is someone telling Rob Sheffield is someone you know other people who you know I mean Robert christgau is like put out you know what Infinity of these anthologies of his writing or whatever and and. You know yeah I'm not Lester bangs but like I'm somebody's Lester bangs so like literally fuck off publish my book, I'm people just say there was no precedent and I would this other this other they point to music books by women that had sold really poorly as a way of saying there wasn't an appetite for it oh my God right okay so and so I was like all right fuck you we're doing this title. And people were some people were pissed because they thought it erased other woman's work which at the time I did not know about what. Really is the first collection of criticism but it's more of a it's like a different kind of book it's not quite an anthology and whatever we could sit here and split hairs all day. But the fact that I was you know. I was trying to make the point yeah here's your precedent fuck you people here's your precedent no one gets to say there's no precedent anymore and also guess what there's appetite for it by the time it came out it was in its third Printing and by the time I left. That person and brought my titles to 24 are stressed review is on its 8th or 9th that's incredible. Yeah when most most you know Mass Market books sell less than a few hundred copies and it was like. That book sold I think like 16 or 18 thousand copies basically out the gate that's incredible. And so that's why I got to reissue it too so did you get shit for calling it The out I mean outside of the other person that there was a sense that seems I was okay only this is this is the funny thing so the year at the like the year when it came out or whatever and I was at this conference and both Bob Chris Gavin Grill Marcus cornered me at different points, inside I know people are saying. There's other collections of criticism but like technically that other one was a memoir and the other one it did it and they both really wanted to be like, don't let people rattle you and I was like, the two oldest play called Gentle Ben of of Music criticism like really kind of giving me like the little like sweet little punch in the shoulder and be like. No this was important that you did this and I was like hey thanks I mean it I mean it's like you don't need them to do that but like you doing what you did wouldn't have happened 10 years before you know like it's that's kind of huge I mean it was but also in you know I just also I love you called him Bob Chris, what is Marty Scorsese or so sorry you know and he but but like you know and he had been by that point he'd also been my editor and he was somebody who very much took a chance on me the first time I got in the, Pals and job critics Paul was because he pulled something off my blog at the time which was like, because I was very I think opinionated and very mouthy and maybe wrote with a pretty like at the time very like high-end like I kind of tone down the preciousness and the style of my writing thing fucking God, you know back then it was like it was very exciting to be in this community in the fact that you know me and Julian Escobedo shepherd and a handful of other people who are kind of women coming up at that time there was like. Four of us. There is even a swimming in music credits the something there isn't like you know in the scene and we will cool to each other like was actually an was my best friend for many years and we're still we're still friends so I do want to get to that we're still talking about like 2004 I'm sorry although but I know it's all very interesting how the Vyvanse today yeah, is it do you feel like it kind of gave you the energy to get over the edge, I cleaned I had to clean my closet today and you know part of my life as like a trying to be like a. Practical and spiritual and healthy holiday doll at 46 is sometimes, you do you just do the things you have to do until you feel like doing it you know real fake it till you make it, my family crest yeah so I so I had to take Advanced it is like my sixth time I hate having ADHD I made it work for me for so long and now it is it's a point where it becomes unmanageable so the Lilith Fair stuff like what was your what was your it's because I feel like in the late 90s when Lilith Fair was like what 98 to do 97-98 ye9, um there was sort of a test balloon of a few I'm now like a I don't seem like the foremost Lilith Fair scholar but so the so I'd be it I don't think there's anybody else who has that, I in a really funny way so I didn't go to little Fair because I was way too far fugazi yeah that's where most that's why I'm kind of surprised him like the fact that you've got some relationship to Lilith Fair I'm like that's that's true I'm like a Lilith truther dude I'm like I'm so deep in it for a little bit at this point Okay so, I think because I mean I just didn't even want I couldn't afford it no go to Lilith at the time oh the were the tickets pretty cheap though. Yeah I did but I lived on like 1,200 bucks a month I would have had to get to the show like my right was 600 bucks of the time I mean it was Leah I mean granted you know I only say that because I found my Lollapalooza ticket recently from like 1991 and it was $17 and I'm like the first time I went I think it was 12. And I was like I can come up with that yeah so that's why I'm wearing my babysitting yeah okay so Lilith Fair. Maybe about 5 years ago someone was saying to me something about this woman is now one of my agent but she's like I was in a meeting and I said it's just like with Lilith Fair and. So many people at the table who are music fans were like what's Lilith Fair and she was like and I was like ready to tear my hair out and I had also just done a story about. Time's up movement in Nashville singer-songwriter women circles and Nashville's like the last like that's like the last Gauntlet of like my real gendered it's it is beyond our like yeah and so I was there and it was you know these young women in there like we're just putting or just big upping you know like giving each other you know any opportunity I get I give to my friend over here and we work on this together with lifting each other up and I said oh it's just like little Fair and I'm in a room full of young women singer songwriters who are all under 25 and all them like cool what's a Lilith Fair and I was like Jesus. Like patriarchy he's really done its job because it's cut us off from. This thing that was a really successful model that women can point to about what happens when you organize with each other right and granted you know mmm you know what I mean interesting so and again and again it was it was but wasn't it like the best but that's grossing the highest grossing concert tour of the decade. It was not Lollapalooza it was not hoard it was not as fast it was not warp warp oh my God, it was the. Lyrical huffin so-so but the only here's the thing the only and this might make sense to your older listeners but, the only thing that was bigger than Lilith Fair tour wise in the 90s was Garth fucking a Brooks World Tour wow. In three years they grossed approximately 60 million dollars and ten percent of thought. It ended up being over 10 million dollars was donated primarily to small local what were then called battered women shelters. And they were giving away minimum like 30,000 dollars to these places in every single town and they were doing. A full summer run yeah of the longest one I think is like 57 days. It was at one day in each Place sometimes it was like you know two or three days you know like the Rose Bowl stuff like that so anyways. You know at the time I was like sure I'll do a thing on Lilith Fair like that's interesting to me and and I've gotten a lot more interested in the last couple of years particularly in like women women in music oral history in particular and hearing women's voices which is kind of like how I moved into podcasting another stuff like that so I really jumping around but so I did this. I got my friend Sasha Gaffin and Jen Pelley who I'd worked with both of them at Pitchfork and Sasha edited their book and. We divided up this very long list of people who had worked with and been on Lilith Fair. And each of us took like 50 people and we're like let's just get like the consummate oral history and it was for Vanity Fair and. Pretty soon after it was published it was. Just sort of optioned into development and now it's five years later as starting to happen why did it well I don't want to get into this but like, I was only three it was the highest grossing thing why did it not go on because it was so massive and it was getting even more massive and everybody who'd been doing it you know basically for four years because there was kind of like a really pretty year, it was all they did it was all they did Sarah Mclaughlin wanted to have kids and also like many other of our feminist for mother's they thought well surely someone will like pick up the mantle of this hmm. And then no one dead yeah then then Woodstock 99 happened and ruined it for everybody but so in the process of doing this you know I had I got a chance to see all the ways that. I had had like accepted the sort of like patriarchal cultural, I don't say truths but like it was like the line that had been fed to me for so long about, these performers and who you know of course like I liked a lot of them but being like Oh it's Mom's and it's this and like because it was safe it was really pedestrian and like that's like wow. This was like basically like a big queer safe space mmm that's like 50,000 people there, and no one got raped in the parking lot yeah and people like you know we're like and on into their tampons and like just having a wonderful these incredible things and all of these women who are do you know Brandi Carlile has talked at length about how inspired she was and and being in the front row and on all this stuff and, and talking to all these people about how change their lives and all these musicians way Brandi Carlile attended at age 16 and then became Brandi Carlile yelling because she saw Yes a bunch of women she talks about it wow in the in the oral history chatard she talked about she had been drinking Mountain Dew all day and kept going to like the same, the same like Mountain Dew 10 or whatever and finally after she'd had a couple the women working there was like listen honey, you need to put on sunblock and you need to switch to water we're cutting here oh yeah that's it's not very Matrix is taking care of each other but yeah and and you know in Dan Levy told me it was the first place that he saw. Like out queer adult people and mass and they were happy joyous and free and it was life-changing for him and so it wasn't just about you know for some people it was certainly about the music. And then there was a lot of other people who went as young people in they became you know kind of gotten a punk rock and DIY later and they said it was Lilith Fair that really made them go, this is what a concert could be this is what a scene could be this is what this is what community could really be and that they've spent their whole lives then trying to replicate that in different ways. With and without success sometimes but so I really became in the process of doing this story kind of like a Lilith. Chaser uh-huh and now I'm working on producing what will be the. The movie Lilith the movie version well I mean you almost want to come back like it just in general Willis and general idea, I'd go to that I know so you you're making books you're writing things you're you were the Editor in Chief what were you at Pitchfork I was Editor in Chief of the print magazine and then I senior editor of this part called the pitch and I was there for about a year. And then I laughed and went to MTV News what did you do for MTV News we hoped reboot it into just a totally we were really trying to take it from being it was like at that time like a clickbait new site. And all these people were coming over from Grant land grant languages died and so my friend Molly Lambert. And Alex pappademos were like chest copper needs a job and then I got a call like a couple hours later because I was like, Molly have to help me get out of Pittsburgh and then I'd like I literally I was like I don't know what the fuck I'm going to do and then they called me and they're like do you want to be the music editor, as I okay they're like you get to hire all these people and I was like okay. I have to be able to hire Megan Garvey and I have to be able to hire his a sales and I have to be able to bring Kalif and I have to you know bring Carvel and it's made it this like female and like. It was it was I mean it was really a special place when you when you look at it and we knew it wasn't going to last forever. You know things don't things like that don't last forever which sucks cuz they should and I mean but it was a very intense 17 months but our whole thing was like let's bring people here and let them do. Like literally whatever the fuck they can or want to I mean we sent somebody to Russia to report a 10,000 word story about like a long dead Russian animator like crazy stuff like great stuff for like resumes because our whole thing was like let's make everybody really fucking expensive let's let's give people podcasting skills let's give them TV writing skills like you know. We were once there was writers in the building we were getting recruited to do everything from right on this show that was like, whatever to like help them cast people like I was like here is this person not I'm not I'm not saying this to take any kind of credit for what they've become this like here's this woman lizzo that I know no way this is Minneapolis yes you should have her she should Host this show that you're in so that was like her first TV hosting you got lizzo her first like break into, MTV's I didn't even it was the most like just hear something let's take the compliment no and then because Lisa was just like meant to be yeah you know and I was like here's his videos of her that she's making at the State Fair, that's like what she was doing at the time but like the talent people are like we want Grimes to host this early what I was. No you don't do you don't want Grimes to do anything you know but it was like and then you know hanifa ended up writing like one of the VH1 Divas celebrations and you know jokes for like Key and Peele the hoes like, MTV Awards and like everybody got to do a bunch of really weird stuff and the thing I got to start doing was like producing TV and short-form documentary where I was like, oh my God this fucking great but you know for like 17 months we just it was like we were like a well-funded lamprey on the back the Viacom shark as my, you know ahead of incredible boss my mentor my mentor Dan fierman and work with like. All the greatest writers and critics of my time. In every regard you know I we had a we hired 55 people I got to help hire like 30 of were you in New York no I said I have to be able to work at home, so I was like the one person that. Dot in the office that rules and so I would fly back and forth we've even gotten to the fact that you've got children because I probably was the reason why you had to stay here um yeah but also because it was like. I knew that wasn't going to be a forever job like why would I move for my children to New York City mom please yeah so then that lasted 17 months when was that. I guess that ended around like maybe early 2017. The very wisely The Newsroom moved to unionize and Viacom notoriously. Basically onion eyes well but that so they just went Union and then they just nuked everything cool cool which is which is actually. They had done that years before even like kind of during Prime MTV News, era they laid off 250 people not Newsroom and left one person is it correct order no but that person the one person who survived wind up being our boss oh the good guy, your Mentor no not that no nothing not that different guy but anyway so so so I did that and then after that I went to. Spotify for about a year to just learn how to produce things of All Sorts primarily you know video. It was really great and it proves video for Spotify yes so made mini documentaries on what. They would play in playlists on rock playlist oh yeah it was very short-lived but kind of the biggest thing I did there was like a multi-part. Thing on you two oh wow which you can watch on YouTube now YouTube you to you to YouTube, yeah and but that it was really good it was really good and people are like this is this is the time everyone there was like wait you just made what my was like I made an 8 minute documentary about, U2's basically like there their interest in American political power, that's so cool that's like that that's a take of you to I would be curious about I think it's really good and you know and people were like oh no we make it was more like a we make content, here and the people in the building were like. With like kind of like you must be confused and so it was it was kind of like a you know I ended up leaving because I just wanted to go back to writing I'm not meant to work at a big corpo but then you did wind up doing the women who rock yeah but that was I got hired as a it was like a for higher director. That the folks putting it together I think initially Googled me to add to be a writer and we started talking about it and they were like oh you have a bunch of directing and producing experience and so, that's how you want a bit of room with Pat Benatar God she's I will say Mary Pat Benatar is like. We've been getting the real Pat the whole time of course not like anyone really doubts that but Pat is so packed. And who she puts what she puts across in her music. Is so exactly who she is and she swears a lot and she's super feminist and she's. You know zero fucks given absolutely just herself. But like I mean you said she says blues music now I think she she I mean she just different kinds of stuff now but that you know by the time Pat Benatar joined Lilith Fair, she had kind of pivoted towards away from pop and she was doing Independent Records and and, with kind of a blues yeah so I just I feel like I kind of lost track of her after her 80s Heyday her get nervous era yeah I mean I think she really, as she told us and low in the show interview that she she was just really tired of like. These industry dudes just fucking with are not. Not having full control of so many things and it's so it's weird that we still have to fight for that it's weird that the that it's just. That the power structures just will not allow women to just. I mean we're we do it we can we're getting there it's harder but it's I mean famously by interviewed Bjork when I was at Pitchfork and she talked about. Not getting credited for her own work and how she had really not wanted to talk about that for a long time because it seemed like she was complaining and you know that doesn't open turn out well but. I think things have changed in the last few years but I think it's still ongoing but you know I've really. Hey really I've put some distance between both music journalism per se and the music industry. And me I just don't like I don't I don't want to build much in those worlds like I have I have. You know young men tees and people that I'm in relationship with who were women and folks who are still working in those Industries. And that's kind of like the only way that I'm in relationship with those worlds because it was just like it was just like oh this is a space that's just like we're really interested in like, dehumanizing me breaking me not paying me not paying me on time not paying me what I'm worth subjecting me to ageism you know all of this stuff. You know ages and well that's where we're at that's where we're at and like you know being like people people asking me, you know if it was okay with my husband that I would go to Nashville and Report or. Don't you need to check with someone to make sure that your kids would taken care of me and it was like no I'm going to re-home them fucking Craigslist before I move bitch mmm. And no one and no one's asking the men that like no no no and it was just but it was just because it was just too. I mean I'm really fortunate that I'm in a place where. Like I can do other stuff and now I just edit books I published books. Like I write and publish them eventually I write and publish them I haven't written much during this pandemic you know I can produce and host podcasts I can, produce and direct for TV and film you know I can. I mean this is where you all kinds of stuff where it was like I just and at least in those worlds I can have more freedom I can get paid what I'm worth usually. Now when you mention mentees I mean that's the thing is it like I mean you're you're on a path that you created that is I mean it's just it's your path like it's what is it, what would you what do you say to these younger mentees that are coming up like what do you like how are you helping them like what is a way that. Was it practical way to put your life. To use for a younger generation I mean usually I just kind of asked some questions like what do you what do you. What's calling to you as a Next Step. Or they call me when they can't figure out like kind of some you know office politics or like you know is it right for me to ask for more money around this and stuff like that and and things that I never had because I was working in isolation but it was like, I just try to give people a sense of permission that they do have. You know I don't miss I like good intuition but I think particularly if you're a woman or if you are someone who someone else who's kind of coming from the coming in from the margin. That. This idea that like if I ask for anything they're going to think I'm ungrateful because it's just drummed into u.s. and so sometimes it's just that sense of permission in that and to help people nurture that own intuition and that sense of what's right and wrong because often times the industry as a whole will be is not in accord with like you know someone who has any self-esteem, you know what I mean like it's an industry that does take advantage yeah and is really an is really like puts a lot of fear into people some daily operation within that and and with people that I am in, you know mentee Mentor kind of relationships it's like okay I help them kind of reason things out or. Okay well if that's if you want that to be your next step maybe you should talk to so and so and you know I opened my Rolodex to yeah all kinds of folks because that wasn't something that was ever available for me it was so competitive. Well and if I mean you can't I mean you know it's like how did you get the number is it is it the is this person cool enough for me to use as a name yeah I mean I remember I really wanted to write for gq4, years I needed like a good-paying gig right after I'd had kids where I was like I need to write for some place really regularly. That's two bucks a word so that I can write just a few hundred words that make a they really paid by the word. They did and at the time they paid two dollars but I don't know what the fuck they pay now but but there was a handful of places where you could make two bucks a word. And a lot of them I wasn't like New York or legit enough to get into but I had I'd been trying to make my way into G q-- And two different people that I knew who routinely would ask me for whatever they fucking needed. Anytime I would like ask them or DM them or anything like what's who's your editor who's here signing out after they're done can you pass me along or even just give me a name of like nothing, no sorry I can't I can't ago and it was and it was like my friend Alex you know eventually was like yeah no no here's how you pitch the New York Times here's how you put these people here's how you pitch these people because he said I sent him an email I seemed rude, tests I just wanted his book so you know it's like it's the turnabout's fair play yeah but that. But yeah I thought it was like the men who would do that for me were so few and far between and I don't know if it's it was purely like that kind of resource hoarding or it was because, they felt like I was specifically a threat or that I was too much of like a fucking wild card that you know men are very disinterested in like being like some woman's vouchsafe yeah you know, bad. We've really gone now gone through them we have well I'm I want to know about this golden teapot golden teapot is my production company with my sister my sister Lauren reading. Was the longtime publisher of rookie magazine oh really yeah like your actual sister my actual sister. Was one of the adults tearing the ship. Along with you know toffee and to a certain extent Tommy's dad is real nice Steve is rookie still laughing no. And when it is sort of hidden and there was a it ran its course to some extent. But also it was like I think pushing it further on to be able to grow it. Um and really sustain it and it in a different big or way so the see this is a production company with your sister this is a yeah sorry so this is production company with my sister who's super smart Lauren she here no, she's in New York and it's just kind of the auspices for my. For my big ideas but that. Right now we just have like a handful of things that are in development and some of them are will be for our like other people like sometimes people come to us because they know that we know how to make like a. High-quality music podcast or you know people want me to work on a. Phil there's so many it's like I can't even talk about anything but I'm doing it because they're all like in production and development and things yeah and people don't want you to say anything until his leg. Beyond fully greenlit announced, it's moisturizing safe to say is that you've got here you've got your a lot of pies and your fingers were in a lot of Pies yeah I'm supposed to impressive fun pies it's some really neat pies but basically it was both me and my sister saying. Hey don't want to keep building something for other people hmm let's build something together I know that feeling yeah and and really just seeing if we can. If we can do that and is that what Lilith Fair thing is with is I got there's not a separate thing that I can't even talk about got it but my point is just that but yes but it kind of came out of that, it kind of came out of that because sometimes in the process of these things whether it's like even if it's your own. IP you know it might be through this different kind of like. You know that sometimes there's people that will like commission stuff and then to sell it into development and then it's like two guys that you've never met before. You're splitting things three-way what's with them that definitely happens to people or. Your your IP is through like the magazine that you initially published the thing and so now you're getting maybe fifty percent. When it becomes. You know a feature film or you know and says I hate it I know I know and so because because. I was a little bit further along in some of these processes than and granted I'm no expert but that because I had kind of worked in these different worlds both with my IP and other people's ideas. You know some of my mentees are young friends or other people who are kind of coming up alongside me. With books with their newsletters with they're really good viral pieces did it and uh some of those things it was like hey, why don't you know some of those things are what we're working on developing and then some of those things are just like I've just been sharing Resources with with folks so that they don't get fucked so they get their full check. That's what I'm about. Getting paid yeah getting your whole bag in my bandsaw I mean it seems like I mean you've just been like doing this like living the same ethos the whole time. I can oh you know I mean there's a part of me that's like never really evolved past being like 19 and obsessed with Fugazi. Which I think is really I talked about this a lot with with friends including our some of our mutual friends but like. Think about how like ridiculous you would think somebody is now if they're like yeah I got my entire. Like operating instructions for life from a band I mean who would be that band now. I mean that's in it and I'm probably too old to know but but well but I think it's different I mean I it's I mean here's the BET Spirit has to keep still it's alive I mean the punk rock Spirit it have it's still yeah look at beit overworked no I'm kidding I mean look at beta or Workman he skateboards, he loves fugazi slaps fugazi still so do I like this idea of just I think it was like, so much of what I do I think is sort of like a combo of being like a Montessori Ian I'm just being like I just do the things I want to do. To basically being like a feral human being. With ADHD and like I just have to do things my own system I didn't know how to ADHD until like literally last year I found out like two months ago so it's it's a whole new world who sings that Little Mermaid Ariel okay and then. You know I think part of it was you know fugazi and build-it-yourself and, in charge a fair price and try to make it ethical and it like certainly I've you know really run into my own like nightmares trying to do things in that way within corporate structures or within. Excuse me parts of the music industry and music journalism that are really like nah. We are not here for anybody's back in respect or Liberation or whatever you think you're trying to get over here but. But it didn't keep me from trying. So I don't know that's just what I do but you've always done it and that's I think that that's like but like I literally don't know how to do other like another way of doing it I mean I've certainly I've certainly tried to like put be like, you know like a corpo like corpo Patty. I don't know who like I'm just making a little face here like like totally like I don't know how to do. The fucking politics I've been I always had like I always had the really good girlfriend who was like could be nice to men that we didn't know. That you know or like she was your beard typically like I always I always needed like the the fucking I don't know which one is the Laverne and Shirley but like you know I always needed I always needed. Like the kind of like the spoiler like the hot in the hot friend the wing person yeah who like would make it easier and could be like. You know Spoonful of Sugar yeah just like go down yeah basically I've got word that got dark didn't K okay rewind you know it was like if the promoter was an asshole I was the one that talked to him if this was a place we really needed to play again she would go talk to him you know so it was like if it like that kind of that's an amazing Duality and to understand that and to like be able to Parlay that into the sniffer going to flirt with anybody to make something go easy, like you know or people would be like if you just kissed on says ask this is going to be go a lot smoother as I. You're not paying me ass ass kissing money hmm I don't know what that price is but it's not that yeah and that was so much of my career was just like. That I don't know I don't know I keep thinking of some point like I'll grow up or something or it will be like a different. I don't know it won't be though because this is I mean it also just you're just we've just you know you're in the you're in your groove. You know like you they like you I feel like I have left my crew well I think you're in your but I feel like I feel like I'm more like I've left my. Like if my groove was. A cocoon I must said casket that's fucked up I've risen again on the third day you will move the Rock and I will be gone, know that at that age so I feel like a like a lot of people you know pandemic spend about like, figuring some yeah I feel like I'm in a Fugue State because I'm processing so much stuff because I'm, I am I've chosen to lie fallow and not work so much and that was like so now I can feel my feelings is that really lying fallow or is that just like, getting to the point where you're like okay I'm actually not wasting energy, on the stupid shit that I don't want to do think that's part of it my friend Naomi my longtime editor sent me a picture or like a me more, yeah when I was a video could have been all these shirts was a Tick-Tock yeah of a like some sort of like little sea mammal. Just rolling with the waves just back and forth and she entitled him to let you know this is like what my ambition looks like now and I was like. Yeah kind of like I just I just have such a different relationship with myself and what motivates me to work and I can't. You know three years in pandemic I can't do this sort of leg. Self lacerating I can't use shame I can't use competition to motivate myself to do things I work at a much different. Pace I can only use like my desire to want to. You know I can use like my curiosity I can use my desire to be useful and helpful, to share my knowledge and get the voices of people that just aren't being heard out yes yeah and that's the thing I think if I mean, I think that's the best thing ever I feel like it's like a more evolved version of what you've always been doing because shame and flagellation and competing competition like that's all just fake yeah are you I'm here I could I used competition for a really long time, and then not to be like and then you get to a point where it's like well who's my competition that sometimes the people I was holding onto as my competition are like people whose work I don't speak yeah you know and it's like yeah the sure I would really like to have my books in Translation but they kind of everything else they do is exactly what I want to be doing so there's not, there's just another same shit to be jealous of getting your stuff translated I'm sure it's a hard gatekeeper anything I Manish I'm like a niche writer but my point is that I don't think it's that's if that is the thing you want it to be that's not that hard to get know it's going to come it's going to come, is there anything else you want to get out there into the universe one of you know what I do want to say is I wish. When we were younger we had been friends yeah. Sorry fucking silos yeah no I just it's like I just think about like all the time. That I wasted being so focused on trying to like solve solve the men around me like puzzles. Rather than invest in The Other Women around me and in our connection it sucks I mean this is this is like, now Suburban mom and my mom here in the playroom yeah weird recording this in my play room at my house yeah and if it wasn't going to be your playroom it was going to be my player yeah and so, it's like the suburbs had to bring us together yeah but I'm really I'm really grateful for. The work that you do and all that you have modeled for me and for other people well I'm a gracious mean how graciously you share so much of yourself and your journey and your podcast you told me I had to take the compliment so you have to not interrupt me and that I just. I just love to see you as this bright-eyed sober person doing such great work in the world and I'm just really proud of you thank you I it's funny because I feel like this podcast him and I mean all podcasts are vanity projects, you know they're all they're all just mental wanking and I don't always know what I'm going to do when I get on this microphone oh my God I would never knew otherwise. Oh yeah yeah don't know don't break the, like you're such a natural and and the thing is it's like I'm someone who's always looking for this sort of like I don't say like Equitable girlboss culture but like non girlboss culture where it's like. Really about you know just something that's more involved and I just really think you have something that's like really special and it's so. Totally an extension of you and I think you should be really proud oh my God you're making cry. It's okay we can all classes go get this let's fucking let's let's get a flower crown. And let's go to a Lilith Fair 02 and we're gonna maybe let's just put on some Paula Cole. Music. Now where could it be I don't know the next words I don't either all I did was a themed diet to Dawson's Creek and on that note Jessica thank you so much thank you my nisi Fanning me you're going to everybody's going to find you in the universe in many I'm easy Google y'all easy Google that's the name of your. Next tape don't end on that note. Music. Thanks for listening to all up in my lady business it is written by me Mary nisi, it is produced by Christina sorum Williams and Amelia Ruby with softer sounds, it is recorded at the toast and jam offices in Logan Square in Chicago, you can find resources and links from this episode in the show notes at all up in my lady business.com, if you enjoyed this episode and you did Smash that subscribe button and if you're the kind of person that reviews things on the internet please rate and review us wherever you listen to us it really does help people find us follow us on all of your socials and don't forget whatever you do this week do it with your whole ass thanks for listening. Music.