We’re starting off guest interviews this season with entrepreneur Scout Driscoll. Scout is the owner of DesignScout, a high-end design and marketing firm that specializes in restaurants and is working to give a fresh face to an outdated wine industry, all while prioritizing rest ethic over work ethic.
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Music. Welcome to All Up In My Lady Business. I am your host, Mary Nisi. On this podcast, I'll explore the fine line between having it together and losing your shit. Here I share my journey as an entrepreneur, a mom, a wife, a DJ, and randomly a beekeeper. I have no shame and no filter except the ones I use on Instagram. My stories of resilience, a little structure, and a lot of resourcefulness can show you how to take those same things and live your life with your whole ass. Thanks for listening. Music. All right, folks, welcome to all up in my lady business. Today I have the incredible dynamic magnanimous. I don't know what that word means exactly. But I think it means something positive. Scout Driscoll. She her. She is the founder and driving force of design scout an award winning independent creative agency known for their work with Instagram worthy consumer brands and a disruptive B2B business. Wait, is it you disrupt B2B businesses or you're disruptive yourself? We help people who are willing to stand out in B2B. Basically businesses that don't want to be boring, but work with other businesses. We help them too. So consumer brands and companies that help other companies that don't suck. Oh, and I have to say, full disclosure, Scout is the wonder kid behind the Toast & Jam website that I, on the reg, get just heaps of praise about. And I'm like, I wish I could say I had anything to do with it other than just approving things. But yeah, you are the mastermind behind Toast & Jam, so I can't sit here and say I'm completely unbiased. Wow, thank you. But you are incredible. So Scout, I really want to get into this disruptive thing, because I feel like that's such a hot word on the street. But let's get a little bit on your backstory. So where are you from? Where are your roots? Yeah, I grew up in White Lake, Michigan, which is like excerpts of Detroit, it's like 45 minutes northwest of Detroit. So like in the middle of the hand. No, a little closer for those watching the video. About an inch and a half to the left of your right hand thumb. Yeah, so it was like- is the Michigan hand. Okay. I always kind of get confused on which hand to use, but yeah. This one's Wisconsin. No. Yeah. So I grew up in the exurbs of Detroit, really, like five minutes from farms in the middle of nowhere. And then 20 minutes from actual kind of cool things, but not really. It's more like a square on the map. There's not even a town. It's just like a township where they drew a square. And that's where I grew up. It was very boring. Was it small? Did your graduating class have 10 people in it? No, no, no. It was a big, it was like that urban sprawl, white flame. Literally, everyone I grew up with was white. Their parents all fled Detroit in the 60s and moved out to this place that had previously been just like hunting cottages and things like that. Yeah, it was pretty vapid. There was not much out there. And so at 18, I moved to Chicago right away, immediately, and came out here and started at a very mediocre university, but it was in Chicago. And then I transferred to Columbia for art and that's where I fell in love with design and all things strategic in design, advertising, you name it. When you transferred to Columbia, was it graphic design or art or was it art? Yeah, advertising art direction. So I think of advertising art direction as basically graphic design but with a purpose. You know, graphic design is an art form in itself, but then when you start thinking about it more commercially and not just about logos or stationery, but really about what are we trying to convey through this design in the blink of an eye, That's where advertising kind of comes in. And then after four years there, I decided that I loathed advertising. I hated the idea of showing teeth whitener or cigarettes or like promoting things that that really didn't improve people's lives. So I... Applied for one job at a theater and didn't get it, their loss. And I got pissed and I started a company. And I decided from the very beginning, I wanted to work with people who ran businesses that made people's lives better. So I've been super fortunate to have that manifest over the last 20 years. And I've worked with everyone from craft coffee companies and entertainment, lots of dining, musicians. And that naturally evolved into working with lots of services and and owner-occupied brands, interior designers, architects, you name it. And you said so many things I want to like, I want to like attack and kind of unload. You said something back there about like that you didn't want to sell cigarettes and teeth whitener and you wanted to do brands that were what was the mission? You said something awesome in there. I can't, I should be writing these things down. I mean, I just I wanted to promote things that people already loved and that enhanced their lives. You know, so you think about food or dining or coffee or these things that people are passionate about. You're not convincing anyone to like something. No one's saying, like, no, your life is shit and you're going to feel better if you eat this gourmet French Vietnamese food. And it's like, you know, by going into the branding, when I started my company, my friend Eric, I was like, hey, he was my roommate. And I was like, hey, can you draw a piece of toast that's giving a toast in a jar of jam that's jamming out? And he like, probably there might've been a bong hit involved. And then he drew it. And that is my logo. Like, I turned it into vectors at some point, but nothing has changed since that original. But it's so good. It is so good because my friend Eric is an amazing artist. It's funny, I ran into him last night. Scout and I were talking off my Toast & Jam, had their holiday party last night, and Scout actually had her 20th anniversary party, which we'll probably get to later on. But I ran into my friend Eric, who actually drew my logo, and he was talking about how, like, he just doesn't have time anymore to make art. Like, even if he wants to make a piece for someone, it's like, I can give you my design for free, but there's like $50,000 and just the creating of the thing. And it's amazing just how far we've gotten away from like... And it feels like everything's been so commodified so far. I find myself in these sort of philosophical moments of, like, where are we at in the world? We're falling apart. Like, it's all just late-stage capitalism falling through our hands like a gossamer web. I feel that. I built my business working with startups, and now I've got seven employees and a huge payroll and rent to pay in the studio. And I just have all this overhead. And so, you know, as much as I wish that we were, you know, the girl next door who can do your logo, like when I had started, when I first started Design Scout, one of my very first clients was Metropolis Coffee. If you're in Chicago, you probably know their brand. And I started it by sliding a note under the door of their build-out. They're building a coffee shop a block from my house. I'd seen three or four businesses go in and out of that space. And I was so tired. I'm like, oh my gosh, a coffee shop. Finally, we need to stay. So I put a little note in the door. I was like, hi, I'm your neighbor. I'm a designer. I really want you to be successful. I would love to do your logo for free. Just let me do your branding." And that's how it worked for a year. Or eventually, they called me in. I met Tony and Jeff Dreyfus, who are the most amazing father and son entrepreneurs ever. And they're like, Rad, this is so cool. We would love for you to do our logo. And I was like, sweet, let's do it. And then I just did free design for them because I was passionate about it. And I loved them. And I wanted them to succeed in my neighborhood. And I feel like I carry a little bit of that through today. Whereas now when someone comes for a logo, we're like, well, now we know that to do it right. It's not just a girl with a sketchbook and knocking out a logo. But you're going to do four weeks of brand strategy and brand messaging. And then we're going to do six to eight weeks of showing you fully fledged worlds for your brand and how it lives. Because I've learned that that's the right way to do it. But that costs money. And I, wish that we could still just back up napkin-free logos for all. Yeah. And that's the thing. It sucks that that's Thank you for joining us. In order to just kind of exist in the world, especially when you have like 10 miles to feed and like rent and things like that where you know you can't just do what you want to do. And like that's like, I mean that's a bigger conversation about the nature of work. But to go back to. Getting work and how you kind of maintain it, like when I came to you I was like, I need a new website, make one. And you're like, oh no, like you just said, you go through four weeks of, I'm like, I don't know, none of this makes sense to me. And when I started working with you, it really forced me to have to kind of think about like the why of when I'm doing things. Yeah. Especially when you don't have a brick and mortar. I mean, we did have a brick and mortar, but not really. It's not like people can like walk in the door and be like, I need a DJ. And then I hand them one, you know, like it takes, you have to go through the website to like contact me. And it's like even the thoughtfulness behind like what your contact form says and not overloading them with too much information, but being able to get enough that you can get them into the right funnel or whatever. That's a long conversation. Yeah. Steal a little bit from my amazing brand strategist Amanda Wurzbach who's taught me everything I know about brand strategy. So many people think about their product idea and you're so used to thinking about what you do, what you sell, what you provide people, the actual nuts and bolts of what your business is. But what people buy is your brand and that's how you make people feel and that's, what they walk away with when they engage with that brand. And so you know that's something where for so long I just thought if we could just represent this product through visuals we'll We have a great logo, but that's not what it's about at all. It's about really connecting with people on that emotional level and helping them understand their brand. And I think that's why I've elongated our process over the years to really get entrepreneurs to sit down and think about that brand and then help them get tools for how to express those things and then help them say all of that in the blink of an eye. The reason why your Toast & Jam scribble works for your brand is because, and I know this makes us feel old, but you're a counterculture brand. Toast & Jam is not Acme wedding DJs. It's a counterculture brand, and that just allows you to break all the rules. And you find the right customers that way. It's funny. I go to a lot of conferences, both in the wedding sphere and the DJ sphere, and just business in general. And whenever people are like, I can't believe what you get away with on your website. Your brand is so you. You're so like incredibly like, I don't know how you get away with that. And it's like, I don't know how I don't get away. I don't know what I'm getting away with. Like, I don't know what else to do. It's not like I studied wedding DJ websites and was like, this is what I don't want to do. Like, it was just like, I need a website. I like pink. I like green. Here's my piece of bread." And my first website, that's what it was. And just over the years, we made it bigger to reflect the size of the company, too. I mean, I would love to get your opinion on... Because the fact that your company is 20 years old, your company is about as old as mine, or your company is older than mine, a little bit older than mine. And I have watched the way things have changed over the years where it's like, you've got your GeoCities webpage. And then it's like, you build out a basic thing. And then over time, you know, WordPress or whatever, but then the square specification of things. Is that a thing? Like, do you guys think about when Squarespace came on the scene and like what that has. Done to your business? Yes and no. I mean, one, it offends me because now every website looks the same. And part of that is not just Squarespace, it's responsive design in general and like designing a website that fits on a little tiny screen and a great big screen. There are certain techniques that just kind of work best in those situations. But I think for me, it's less of concern for me. I'm not like, Oh God, we're gonna go out of business because people don't come to us for cookie cutter websites. And I think what's so amazing about that is that we have websites that are 10 years old that look brand new because they're designed to the brand strategy of that client and not to whatever is happening in design for web templates or whatever's cool or trendy at that time. And I think your website's the same way. Somebody, it was more just like almost like the philosophy behind, it's almost like what Canva has done to, I mean, I use Canva for quick and dirty things, but whenever I look at it, I'm always like, this is definitely done on Canva. It's like it gets the job done, but not really. I almost feel like things like Canva and Squarespace almost make it worse because you dip your toe in, and it almost gets you far enough into it where you're like, I can do this, I just move the box here, and I just put some text in there, and then I move it around, and then it clicks. Oh, look, it actually opens the thing. You get kind of excited because you're like, you know, like, piece, like a puzzle. But then you look at it, and you're like, this is not right. It almost makes things worse, because then you look at a website like mine or another website you've done, or just websites that were built in, like actually built, and it's almost like the more you know, the less you know. A bit. And I feel like it would, I'm just really grateful that I have what I have, and I don't have to plug my way through it. I guess my, I don't really know what the question is, kind of the idea of like removing the human from it. Philosophically, do you get people coming to you and they're like, you know, I have this, can you recreate this? And you're like, but it's Squarespace and it looks like everything else. Like how do you talk people out of, you know, it's like when people come to you and say, I could use an iPod for my wedding, but I kind of want to see what you can do. Like, is that the kind of inquiry you get? I think we just are too expensive for people to think they can pull that shit. Like most of our clients are gonna come in and be like, And if they do say, I made this logo in Canva, can you make it blue and make it vector so I can use it somewhere? Like, they just know that we're not a good fit. And I'll be like, sure, our average process is six to eight weeks. And they're like, oh, oh, no, no, no, no. Okay, that's not that's not correct. I think, though, like the idea of making that every man dangerous, thinking that they can design it's like when the first digital cameras came out and every photographer was scared because they're like, everyone thinks they're a photographer now. But photographers are still amazing photographers. I think same thing with sign and branding. It's not about, hey, I can make choices now for my brand and execute them. You still need someone to help you understand how you're making the right choices. And to have that clarity to make those decisions with your head and not your gut, that's what really, really happens. And we use Canva all the time. I mean, like, we don't even design shit. We just get templates from Canva and sell it for lots of money. I'm just kidding. I'm like, wait a minute. No, but we do use Canva, though. Where we like if we design a new brand and we have a bunch of like Instagram template ideas, we don't want them to come to us every time they want a new Instagram post. We'll put it in Canva. We'll install their fonts. We'll make it match our design. Not just go fishing for a template, you know, a pre-made template. We make them for them, but then we let people use Canva to execute based on the ability to do it themselves and to actually not have to hire us all the time. We use Canva for our own capability stack because I can integrate video and I can have like before and after videos playing on a link that everyone in the world can access and it's just still very deck-like, but it's animated. I just mentally spent thousands of dollars in my head on you making me Instagram templates. That thing I didn't know you could do. It's true. It's true. No. If anything, we usually talk about Squarespace and Canva in context of investment, right? And like what people are willing to invest in their brand. And for some people, a custom website isn't going to make or break them. If your business is really based on referrals, and you have your audience and your referral pipeline already, and your website is truly just so people can like, sniff you out and make sure that you're legit, don't spend $35,000, $45,000 on a website. You know, like that's just not necessary. So is there like a situation where you're like, I'll make the brand strategy, I'll pick the colors, here's your font and everything. Is that like a thing you can do where it's like, we'll give you all of the building blocks so you're not going into this blind? Because I think people think they've got access to Canva or they've used Photoshop or whatever that they can just kind of pull this out of their ass. I have seen those websites. And they break, you know? My website doesn't break. And I feel like we've gone through this, like, riding this wave of like... When I made my website, some people were like, you're making a website? That seems weird. I'm like, how else are you going to find me? Like, it was 2003. Like, I, you know, I was like, I guess I have to have one of these like new fangled websites. Yeah. And it's all in Flash. Yes. Flash animations. Java. I believe Java was involved. I don't know how Java. Metronomia. Yeah. Oh yeah. That just gave me PTSD. And actually, what's funny is that, because my friend Greg, who's wonderful, my friend, he did my website for free for years. I mean, he was, I look back on that. I'm like, oh, Greg, I feel like I owe you money, but don't be listening to this podcast. I think I'm giving you money because I can't. When he was doing some iteration of updating it. He's like, do you want to put a song in there? And I was like, Most of my clients are probably, you know, like secretly planning their weddings at work. And so I'm like, I don't want you to go onto my website, and then a song starts playing, and then everyone can hear that they're not working. Like, that was my thought. It was a universally bad idea to have music on your website. But for a solid three years, and everyone had a little music player, every restaurant, like you would go to a locales website, you would go to their website and would start playing this like French, 1930s French music. And so it was just kind of a trend in the day. Yeah, I was against that. But then it feels like everybody kind of got away from their websites. Like, I'm not, they're like, your website's really nice, but like, you don't need it anymore. You've got Instagram and Facebook. You don't really need a website. And then there was a period of time where like I would go to people's websites and they'd be like, it didn't exist. It'd be like redirecting to like their Facebook. And I'm like, you don't own Facebook. You don't own your Facebook. Like I could even tell like that was a terrible idea. And then they started monkeying with the algorithm and now you don't even get in front of anybody. It seems. I mean, does that algorithm chasing, does that factor into like what you do? No, but we don't do a lot of digital marketing. We don't do a lot of like managing digital ad campaigns or organic content. We usually let either social media companies kind of handle the management. So it's not really in our wheelhouse. Our work tends to be way more foundational. And almost I joke that we're like Queer Eye for businesses. We're like that, you know, that makeover company where we go beyond just the makeover. It's all about your heart and soul, like Amanda's Karamo, I'm Jonathan. You know? We have all the pieces. But so we focus more on who are you, how do you make people feel, how do you talk about that, how do you convey that in the blink of an eye? And then we arm them with all of the marketing pieces they need to kind of deploy, or jump out of the nest with that new brand. But we don't do a lot of active marketing for clients. That's good, because that's the hard part. Not that what you're doing isn't the hard part, but the actual execution of things is not always my strong suit. So you're 23 years old when you started this company. I was. So you like barely had a real job. I never really had a real job. When we were talking about the podcast before, we were like, what are you half-assing and what are you whole-assing in your business? And I was like, what am I half-assing? And I think, you know, something that I kind of want to talk about with you, having started my business so young and you started your business in your 20s too, right? So, unless you're in your 50s and I have no idea. Yeah. But what if I was like 87 and really pulling off this? But you know, Design Scout was really my first job job. I mean, I had some freelance stuff, but like, I've never had a job with another agency. I've never worked another ad agency or branding studio or any of that. And I think it's so interesting. How you just never shake the imposter syndrome when you've built something from a very young age. There are so many things I'm proud of. And I feel like our process is so tight. And the way we operate is so organic and unique compared to other agencies for that reason. So I'm very grateful. But at the same time, there's just constantly that feeling of like, well. How do other people do it? We literally had our 20th anniversary last week. And I'm like. Like, are we a real branding agency? Is this a real business? Yeah. Yeah, no, I know exactly what you mean. And I, you know, that's part of one of the reasons why I love doing interviews with business with women founders, because nobody came through the right path, you know, like, went to college for the thing and then went and then, you know, got a business degree. And then, you know, I, you know, I got a loan from the bank and they believed in me and then I use that seed money. It's like every woman's got this story of like, my heart hurt or like I had my third kid and I needed money and I didn't know what to do. There's always this moxie element to it. Yeah. It's funny that you're mentioning imposter syndrome because you're the third person in the last two days that's brought it up to me. I've gotten really into horoscope, like astrology. Okay. In a thoroughly unresearched way, like I can't sit here and pull off like I'm an Aquarius, that makes me X, Y, and Z. I don't know those things yet. But my horoscope yesterday was like, imposter syndrome is everywhere. And I'm like, okay, you're bringing it up. My HR guy brought it up, my VA. It's like weird how it's kind of in the air. So I'm wondering if like, there's some astrologicals. It's just because Jupiter's rising. And is it really? No idea. I mean, could be. Saturn is in transit. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Mars is retrogradinal. Always. It feels like Mercury is always in retrograde. And I'm like, when does it go into retrograde? I don't know what the forward motion of retro is. But the imposter syndrome I think is difficult, especially when you didn't work for a bunch of agencies and figured out what you did and didn't like. You haven't had a bunch of shitty job bosses that operated on an old boys system. And so you have to beat back that. I'm sure you have to beat that back in your own way. There's no way you don't. And I saw that you I mean, the idea of there being a white guy in the room is the thing that gets things done which is insane and ridiculous. Did you borrow a white guy? We'll get to that. It It kind of never goes away. You never really feel like you belong there, especially when you're at the top and you made up everything. You're like, is this right? Why is this working? I made all this up, and I don't know why this is working. And so especially at 23, starting your company, how did you figure out how to manage people, especially creatives? I feel like I manage a lot of creatives, and it's very hard. I think that's what I'm most proud of, is the fact that because I was able to live in sandbox and be my own boss and also add on people into this little thing I'd built over the years, I've really been able to develop a culture and a work style and a way of bossing that I'm super, super proud of. And for me, it's the idea of finding the right people, making sure that as they came on, I was able to meet their needs. And I totally fucked it up for the first. Six or seven years. What's an example of fucking it up? Oh, my first employee was amazing. He worked for me for eight years and then he got poached by Nike, Jeremy Pettis. He's an amazing illustrator, amazing designer. But Jeremy is the most easygoing guy you've ever met in your life. Literally nothing phases him at all. And he was such a great first employee because he didn't have any standards. I couldn't upset him. He was just like, yo boss, what's up? Okay, thanks. He would do amazing work. But a few employees in, I had had I had an employee that was, he was upset he didn't have like an annual review. And I was like, a what? And he taught me even more about how to like, be a more professional boss and like how to begin to think about this seriously and not just be a freelancer with a couple of guys who help me out, but actually be a business that takes care of its employees. And he really shifted my mindset into thinking about, how do I serve them? How do I implement, you know, like I don't, my do annual reviews, the self-evaluation. My goal is to better fine tune people's dream jobs every year. And so we sit down and we talk about all of their perceptions of their job, how they feel about their job, what they're most proud of, what means the most to them, what they would change. My favorite question is, what would you change if you were Scout. And like, no holds barred, like, if you could change the business, what would it be? And that's something I'm really proud of, like how we've organically grown to take care of our team. And a lot of places in the design industry, in the marketing, advertising, PR worlds, I mean, they just... It's so rise and grind. They just burn through employees. They exploit young employees. It's such a toxic work environment. And I'm proof, Design Scout is proof that you can have a business that doesn't do that, that treats people to respect, that pays of fair wages that has them work 40 hours a week, sometimes less if it better suits your lifestyle. And it's better for our clients, bar none. At the end of the day, we're more creative. My average tenure is seven and a half years. I have institutional knowledge. I have staff that are ride or die. My team just loves their jobs. And that makes us better designers. That makes us better creatives. You're not going to squeeze creativity out of someone. By having them work 80 hours a week or stay at the studio until 2 AM doing a pitch. Like, it's just not worth it to me. There are no emergencies in branding or design. Like, life goes on. And I think learning how to manage those values and in tandem with how to be a boss is what I'm most proud of. And I think that's something a lot of other business owners should learn from and focus on. You know, make the lifestyle and the happiness of their employees a priority first, and the business will follow. I mean, that's what the nature of labor used to be. You know, like it used to be like, we started working because, you know, like, Wow, I sure don't know how to make candles, and my family's in the dark. And this guy's like, well, I can make candles. Can you give me a couple of eggs? And it's like, oh, look, his skill is better than my skill. We look at us trading things. It used to be like we just want to be able to live our lives and be able to do things, have other people kind of do the things that we can't do to make life better so that I don't have to spend all my time trying to figure out how to make a candle. I can just buy one, and then I can, you know, whatever, churn butter to the best of my abilities because I can do it by candlelight now. And it just seems like, as we've grown as a society, it felt like we had this kind of sweet spot where it was like, I mean, horrible racist things were happening. But as far as like, people would go to work and they would work their 40 hours and they would come home, they'd go to their bowling league and then they would go to church or whatever and they would have their nights. And it just feels like now that once work started getting into like working until one o'clock in the morning, I mean, it's interesting you're saying there's no designs and design, there's no emergencies in design. Like Try telling anyone else and design that. I feel like all my friends had ever worked in a 80-hour weeks, and they had a cocaine floor that would fuel them so that they can keep editing or whatever. And it's like... What the fuck is the point? And to me, it's just about the bloat in the advertising industry, and the absolute fear of putting boundaries on how your clients expect you to behave and work. My clients know from the very first time we meet them, we celebrate our rest ethic before our work ethic. We work 40 hours a week. I will not answer my phone if you call me outside of work hours. I will never check an email on the weekend. This is just how we work. And it takes one or two unanswered emails and they never abuse that again. They understand. And it's not that hard. And I understand when you're working with Keebler or whoever. I'm not trying to make Keebler sound bad. Sure, no. It's just a big business. Whenever you're working with some giant corporation, they're throwing a million, million dollars at you, and they give you this unreasonable deadline, I don't understand why accounts people can't say no. Mm-hmm. Because someone will always say yes. For every person that says no, there's five that'll say yes because they need the money so badly, or they've been trained to think that this is what it is. It's like with the wedding industry. It's like people who are getting married, a lot of money, a lot of emotions, there's huge things going on. They are not their best selves. clans are great, but there's always this element of, I will get emails from people who are like, I sent my DJ an email 11 hours ago and they haven't replied yet. And it's like, okay, it's Tuesday, four months before your wedding. What could possibly be happening? Unless it's Saturday night or whatever, the night that events are happening, nothing's an emergency. But we can't treat it that way. And so I think it's a little bit less stressful than Keebler or whatever company that's coming down on you. The evil elves. But, you know, it's like I have a friend that was talking about how like her husband, part of his job is like writing the legalese on coupons. You know, like, you know, like, can't be used in Hawaii. Like, you know, like not, you know, there's, this is not transferable. This has no valid monetary, you know, like the things that are on coupons and it's like, that's someone's job, you know? And it's like, I mean, that, and those, and that's on there because someone abused it, you know, like someone just couldn't be cool. It feels like so much of life is beating back the person that was abusive, that didn't do it right, that tried to find the loophole. And it feels like that's just where we are right now as a society with work and everything is like, what is someone going to try to get away with that I have to try to anticipate? How can I bake that into the problems people are going to take with this? And I have to imagine that that comes up quite a bit with design. Who would be offended by this? going to misunderstand that. Like, the people who are so shocked that I'm able to get away. With so much on my website when I don't even know any other difference. Like, what are some examples or situations where you've been in where you've had to like talk people out of getting out of their own way and kind of embracing themselves? Yeah, I mean, I think what's so nice is that we do focus on brand strategy so much. So we have those conversations before we put pen to pixel and start doing design. You're able to, you know, say, well, let's have these conversations about who you are, about your strategy. And then, and if there's anything that's not authentic to them or potentially offensive, etc. I don't think we run into it too much because we have those conversations early on. Six of the photos are real photos, and then there's clearly a stock photo of a black person. And you're like, why can't we get more black people at this event? Or let's have these conversations to help them promote diversity. Or maybe you're marketing, you're fishing for a very specific demographic, and when you can broaden that way of expressing your brand so that it's more accessible to everyone. I mean, that's kind of difficult because I feel like it's something that I've been really trying to overcome bias and kind of see the places where, My DJs are overwhelmingly white and I feel like I have been trying for years to try to change that. It's been really hard and I can't tell, am I trying to push white supremacist, capitalistic ideas and that's why I'm not able to get more people of color. I feel like I'm constantly trying to look at things through that lens and I'm not doing it perfectly. But I'm like, at least I'm trying, but that's not good enough either. I think it was really easy to you get into a place where you're like, well, I'm doing the best I can, but you're not necessarily and I feel like a website, the storefront. I don't think a lot of people are doing a lot of thought on that. Yeah. Support for this podcast is brought to you by Toast & Jam DJs, my very super cool DJ company located here in Chicago, Illinois. If you are having any kind of party, a wedding, a birthday, a jamboree, maybe an office party, a gala, shrimp boil, store opening, We've done some 5Ks. If you need music for anything, you probably need us. We have also added to our things that we do, photo booths. And our photo booths are super cute. They're pink and they've got a sequin backdrop and they can make gifts and boomerangs that, can be texted out from the booth at the party. They're very cool. So if that is something that you want, in theory, this ad is for local to the Chicagoland area, but you know, money's the same color everywhere. So if you want to fly us to wherever you are, especially if you are in the general Hawaii vicinity, perhaps, we have done a lot of destination events and we will make it very awesome indeed. Go to www.toastandjamdjs.com, check out our website, and give us a hire. It's a huge issue. We do a lot of work in the wine industry. So during COVID, we created a whole new division of our business focused on just the wine industry. And there's, such a movement in that industry to make it not 84% white dudes, which is what it was the last time they checked. And I think there's a lot of people really trying to move the needle. I work with the Roots Foundation, or I'm sorry, the Roots Fund. What's that? The Roots Fund is a nonprofit focused on creating space for the BIPOC community in the wine industry. And a lot of people just don't even see themselves in an industry, whether it's wine or DJing or whatever. And so they go all the way back to the very beginnings. Where they help people get exposure, help people get funding. They have a scholarship program, which is amazing, where they'll help people who want to, people of color who want to get involved in the wine industry in literally any way, whether it's winemaking, opening a winery, selling wine goods on the internet, wine blogging, wine podcasting. And they'll provide them not only a framework that gives them money to invest in that, but also mentorship to help them grow into that as well. And so, because if you don't start at the very, very beginning and help people see themselves, then you are just kind of tokenizing your website or adding that person of color to your marketing. Well, and especially with the wine industry, I mean, I haven't done any research on this, but I would imagine that like the roots of winemaking, you know, it's like, it started out as like the poppers way of drinking. It was like, you know, probably something, you know, very like middle, medieval working class, you know, this is what we just have to drink. And then eventually it kind of grows into this thing that becomes like, you know, this kind of class, it shows status, you know, an expensive bottle of wine is, you know, shows that you care or that you're giving this event more, you know, so there's already like economic and class things baked into it. I mean, you know, it's like, I remember thinking to myself, like, I'd never buy a bottle of wine over $20. Like that's just, you know, and then you taste a bottle of wine that's over $20. Yeah, well, that's what Vint is doing. So Vint is our wine division. And that's- Let's talk about Vint, your wine division. My personal mission is to help the wine industry become more diverse, sustainable, and attractive to younger consumers because the wine industry is in trouble. Gen X is not drinking as much wine as boomers. Millennials aren't drinking as much wine as Gen X. And as they get older, you know, people have thought because the price point of wine, the older you get, the sooner you adopt wine, right? Like younger people might not invest $20 in a bottle, but a little bit older people will because they'll have those experiences. That stopped with millennials and Gen Z, the older Gen Z. So, and the reason being is that wine is just not connecting with younger consumers, and the ways that they market wine are so myopic and so entrenched in the ways that they were marketing wine in the 1980s in Napa, but there's been sea change. And I'm so proud to be part of that sea change and helping push things like sustainable packaging and innovative new like paper wine bottles or wine in a can helping to- Paper wine bottles? Yeah, I did a whole episode on that in my podcast. They look like a wine bottle, but they're made of paper. And they have the same lining a wine in a bag in a box kind of has inside the bottle. And they're 80% less packaging, 80% less weight. They're easier to ship. They're just way better for the environment. And they actually hold wine for years without any negative impact on the wine. Is it a thing where wine in a bag is actually just as good as a bottle, but because it's a bag and not a bottle, It has, like it looks. Shittier? Is that the... I mean, the perception is changing. Actually, there was just a winemaker on LinkedIn who was talking about how he only made 60 cases of his first ever wine in a box, and he sold it in a couple hours. And people are craving that. There's another great wine brand out there called Really Good Boxed Wine. And they take amazing, perfectly made Napa wines, and they put it in a box, and they sell it way more affordably because you're not paying to to ship the glass, you're not paying for all of those things that are so expensive about wine and they're able to produce it at a much more affordable cost, but it is incredibly great wine. I remember reading the cork and synthetic cork, it's the same. There's no real difference between those two things. Yeah. And if you're aging a Bordeaux wine for 10 years, you don't want to put it in a polypropylene bag that's going to degrade over time. But if you're drinking a rosé or a white or a red that's meant to be enjoyed within a year. You literally can't test a difference. So it's the same. And it's even better, especially with box wines, it's great because it doesn't get air in it. And it lasts a lot longer and you don't have to worry about having the entire bottle over the course of a couple of days. So. A couple of days. Highly recommend. So you had your podcast for Vint, is the podcast? No, Vint is your wine brand. Vinted. Vinted. So we had your podcast, you're doing two episodes a week about this. Sometimes, yeah. And then you took a break and now you're coming back with potentially a new one, a new podcast? Yeah. Yeah. We are launching a new podcast all about branding. We're still in the process of of finalizing exactly what we're going to do, but basically the thesis is, does it matter? You know, does brand strategy matter? Does having a differentiated color matter? Like, really getting into small little things about branding. It'll be a limited series where we just help people understand what's so important and what's super not important in brand. You know, like we talk a lot about differentiation and like how, whether or not it's important to be really differentiated with your business. And you take a look at things like, you know, Blue Jeans, and there are literally like a thousand Blue Jeans brands all selling the exact same product. No one's super different, but what's really different is their point of view. And when you have that brand point of view, and you're able to convey that, again, it's not that product statement, but it's that brand statement, that's what we're really talking about. So you don't have to offer a different service necessarily. You could probably have a DJ play the exact same playlist from a different company, and it would be a very similar experience. But when you work with Toast & Jam, you get that Toast & Jam point of view. They've got really cool stringent rules about what songs are going to play, that they're going to be fun to interact with, that you're you're going to have a cool DJ at your event. And that's your point of view. That's not just the music that you're playing or how loud it is. There's a lot more that goes into it than just hitting play. 100%. You know what we haven't talked about yet is, and I don't know if you're cool with talking, but like the momness of you, like having kids and when that happened and how that happened and when that, because were you with your partner when you started the company? I was, I just started dating my husband. Really? Right, like a year, year and a half before I started Design Scout. Yeah, we've been together forever. And so yeah, and then Design Scout was 11 when I had my first daughter, my only daughter, my daughter, Edie. And then, you know, my son was four years after that. You know, people always say when you're a boss, you make your own schedule. And I think I'm really, really privileged to be able to make my own schedule. That's not true. Anyone listening to this knows you don't make your own schedule when you own your own company. But I'm grateful that I've been able to take a little more time. I think the hardest part of parenting and businessing was COVID, hands down. That was... I can't believe I'm not traumatized. You are. Going through this. You are. You're definitely traumatized. Yeah. Yeah. I'm relentlessly optimistic. But that was just insane. So just to not get too deep into it. But so in March 2020, if you'd asked me what kind of business I had, I would tell you we were the preeminent restaurant design and branding studio in the Midwest. There are corners downtown of Chicago where you can do a 360 and see four of our fast casual concepts. We do tons of restaurant work with like Goddess and the Baker, Hannah's Pretzel, Protein Bar, Benjahuda, all these great restaurant concepts. And then every single one shut down overnight. 60% of our business mothballed. And I'm proud to say that every one of our restaurants, stayed in business during COVID. Really? That's... I'm super, super proud of that, knowing that all of our clients survived. Yeah. All of your clients survived COVID. So we lost 60% of our revenue overnight. Yeah. All of our restaurant clients, yeah. So you lost the restaurant industry is nuts. Like, yeah. So you lose all your business overnight. What happens next? We lose. I've got seven employees. I have a husband who's amazing. But a clinical psychologist, and he was able to transition to working from home flawlessly. I mean, his business was set up to really just easily transfer to being work at home. But then we have HIPAA laws. So it means by law, I can't interrupt him during the workday. Because I would be violating someone's HIPAA in their privacy. And so all of a sudden, 40% of the revenue I used to have, I have all of my employees still who are freaked out working from home, trying to figure out how to survive this global pandemic. I have a two-year-old and a six-year-old elbow to elbow with me at the kitchen table. And so I am full-time parenting, remote teaching kindergarten, running my business, saving my business. And then I was like, hey, you know what? I think I'm going to start a wine division because all the restaurants are close right now. And so then we launched a whole new version of our business during that time. And I think that, like, to get through that, to know I could take a pitch call at two o'clock because that's when my two year old napped. And you know, like, to manage like a million zooms being interrupted because the TV show stopped or like everything that parents collectively experienced trying to manage their work, and their children, especially young children at that time. I think we just need like a national holiday to commemorate that from here on out. It is a bummer that it seems like we've learned nothing from COVID. It just it feels like we learned nothing and everything just got worse. I don't know. I think the work-life balance is a huge has shifted. Sure. A bunch of my staff, like any of my staff who have kids all work reduced hours now. And that was it was on the table before, but it wasn't like expected. And now it's like, no, of course you want to be with your family more. I work reduced hours now. I don't work past four o'clock because I decided because I had so much time with my kids during that time. And it was so special. I was like, I'm going to leave work. I'm never sending my kids to aftercare again. I'm going to go pick up my kids when school, out and have that extra time with them every day. I feel like the tolerance for blending life and work has increased. Yeah, I agree with that. I wish that nationally, some corporations are going down to four-day work weeks. And I'm like, yeah, let's get everybody on this. I would like to. I mean, actually, I actually moved one of my only full-time employee right now, she is actually at four days. We moved her down. Because she asked for it, and it was like, I can't lose you. So what's it going to take? And it's like, you know, and I feel like when you're small and nimble, you can make those decisions. But actually, if you're large and flabby, you can also make those decisions too. I saw this thing going around on the internet where it was like, they put a note in the break room and it was like, hey guys, Teresa needs to take off time to have chemo, but she doesn't have enough PTO because anybody donate their hours so that Teresa can get PTO for her chemo. And it's like, you do realize that as a company, you could just make that choice. You could do that. And you could build a policy around it so that not everybody's just like, you know. But it's just like, we've outgrown the way the world kind of operates now. I mean, the pandemic was awful for me. There were some good things that came out of it, you know. But you know, I think when you had a taste of like, not always running around and doing stuff and not having shit to do all the time. Like last night, I went out, we had our work party. And then I went to the Empty Bottle to go see a show. And it was like, I didn't last very long. But I was like, how did I do this all the time? where I would work all day, then I would go to the gym, and then I would go meet a friend for drinks, and then I would go home and I would make dinner, and then I would leave the house again and go to a show or whatever. I used to do that all the time, and not too long ago. Not like it's not, this isn't an old lady thing. It's like four years ago, that was what I was doing. And now I just have no tolerance for it. And I also feel like I'm missing out on spending time with my friends as a result of it. I just feel like I'm just not nearly as social as I used to be. 100%. And it's so easy to tell yourself, you're a parent or you're tired or you got up early to work out because that's your only alone time or whatever. But yeah, it is. And post-COVID, it's almost impossible to get my friends together. And we try so hard, but it's not. We're all secret introverts. And we're all really, really happy to have that rest time at home that we didn't really gift to ourselves before the pandemic. And I think it's nice to have a little bit of that leftover, too, but it does make everything else harder. I'm more willing to admit that I'm tired. I'm more willing to admit, I used to be just had this go, go, go, go, go, go, go, I'll sleep when I'm dead kind of. Or it has to happen. Kind of like there aren't disasters, there are emergencies in design. I'm I'm like, everything was an emergency. Everything was a fire. I become more tolerant to and open to like, are you a Taylor Swift fan at all? I'm just starting to learn about her. Once you get into that rabbit hole, it is impossible to get out of. I mean, I'm as surprised as anybody that I'm as weirdly into her as I am. But on the new album, there is a line in a song where she says, the voices that implore you should be doing more, To you, I can admit that I'm just too soft for all of it. And I think about that all the time. Because when I first heard that line, I thought to myself, oh, that's about other people. The voices as I heard it was other people saying, you need to do more. You need to do more. But then after I realized, it's like, oh, those voices are coming from inside the house. And I feel like this kind of goes with the imposter syndrome we were talking about earlier on. I was just going to say that. I am not a goal-directed person or a goal-directed entrepreneur. I don't have, I mean, I have a five-year forecast, but I don't have like the check boxes I need to check. And I'm really excited about that. Like I've always loved it because I never feel like I haven't done it. I never feel like I haven't done enough, which is not true, because I often feel that. But the thing is, because I don't have goals, I don't check those boxes. And I never sit and go, you're done, or you did it. You know, and I think that's what's so crazy about this 20th anniversary is like, I say to myself like, wow, you did something. And then the other part of me is like, yeah, but you still haven't done anything. Like, was that really anything? Did you really do anything? You employed some people for a while. You made some things. It's like one of these things where I, that's where I go is where I'm like, I mean, even though they've got thousands of people who, you know. Yeah. Like, think of the fans. Yeah. That we did the greatest thing we ever did. Like, all I can think about is like, you know, 15 years ago, I had like a raging dance floor and this old man came up in front of me, and he just stood in front of me with this thumb down, and he echoes through my nightmares. I see that guy all the time, and he's never thought about me again. He's never thought about the fact that he didn't like that I was playing New Order. It was during Bizarre Love Triangle, and like everybody was dancing. I remember that moment like it was yesterday, and I can't recall anybody who was like, You're the best. You're the best. I know it happened because it's sort of back there in the dust balls of my mind. But all I can think about is the people who haven't liked what I've done, or the employee that. Says shitty things about me. Those are the only people I can really give any. And that's the imposter syndrome. They're the ones who know. Well, and your brain is wired to prefer those negative thoughts. It's a self-preservation technique. But I think, too, to turn it into marketing, then. I think that's why I get so hung up on marketing my business. And I've been word of mouth for my entire career. We have done almost no marketing. We're about to launch our new website. It has taken us a year to design and build it. Marketing is just something where I get so in my own head about, am I saying the same thing over and over again? Or do I really have a unique perspective? You tell yourself that when you're scrolling LinkedIn and all these thought leaders, these cool kids with the great photos, you're like, wow, they're so insightful. And I just get so tripped up in that imposter syndrome. And having done just this for so long, I forget, how to talk about my business in a way that is unique and is authentic to us and actually to touch people. It trips up more than just your self-thoughts. It trips up how you promote your business and how you talk about your business. And I think that's something that we all have to get over and get out there and do more of. I imagine that you have people complimenting in you quite a bit. Like, I imagine that you probably have people who are saying to you, like, you know, I mean, well, that's the thing. It's like, I mean, I'm not saying I'm like, I'm in a sea of people perpetually complimenting me. But like, I get compliments where it's like, you know, your DJs are great. Your company's great. You know, whatever. These things. And whenever I hear them, I'm always like, oh, whatever. It's just hard. It was whatever. It was just a thing I do. You know, I kind of found that this, I always try to like put it down and be like, you're, I mean, there's other people that are better than me. And that's such a shitty way to, I mean, why can't I just absorb the compliment? I saw this Lady Gaga thing where she was like, Whenever anybody says that I have a great song, I just say, thank you. I worked really hard on that. And it took me a long time to say that, but it is true. I worked really hard on it. I have done nothing the easy way. I don't think you have either. Yeah. But I think we're problem solvers, right? We're not goal setters. You and I address, and maybe you do set goals. I'm assuming something, but I truly don't. No, I am just triage, triage, triage, problem solve. And then occasionally, something really begins to annoy me and I get proactive. I make all of my business decisions based on what is irritating me and is there a problem to solve? And I feel like what's an example of that? You know, like, like our website was a coming soon website from 2019, you know, that we were in the process of making a new site just before COVID. And then we couldn't use any of our billable hours for our own stuff because we were barely in business. And it's like, I want a website that is all these amazing things. And like, here are all the things that bother me about our website. And now, because those things irritated me, we are addressing them. And we are making them better, you know, or it could be how we manage a project or how we report back to our clients, how we spend our time. It could be how I handle a pitch or try to close a deal. There's always just little things that irritate me that make me better. And I think it's when you're just solving problems, you forget to look back and say, wow, I didn't just fix the annoyance, I actually built a business. And I made a better business. Business that I think is really exemplary within our industry for not only the work that we produce, but how we treat our people, but the way that we manage our business, the way we uplift and encourage our clients, our success with our clients, like all that things amazing. All those things are amazing. And it's hard to remember to think about them when they were often just, you know, something you're trying to make not annoy you. I feel like one of my bigger, like my bet noir or whatever is that I have all these ideas and then I think I'm the only one that can do them. I'm like, I just need the time to do it because I could give it to somebody else who's not going to do it as good as I can. And it's like, is that true? And so I've been trying to get better at when something annoys me and I want to do it, I'm trying to find another person that can do it for me. And when that happens, oh, I get to give somebody money. I get to give them money to be creative. I get to give them money to support a small business. My husband is a very handyman. He can fix things and make things. And he does a pretty good job when he does it, too. It drives me crazy to pay somebody to do something around the house that he can do himself. And the way I see it, I'm like, no, we're going to pay somebody to do that because they're a carpenter. Home people will make some money off of this, but that guy's going to feed his family. That guy's going to like, that woman's going to be able to buy a thing that'll... I don't know. I just feel like I like being able to support small businesses. Yeah. And especially expensive ones. You probably weren't the most expensive graphic designer when you started out. And you probably felt weird. I mean, let me ask you before, did you feel weird about money? Was money a... Because I can't imagine when you've never done a real job and then you start a business. It's like, how do you charge people for things? Yeah. You'll pay me what? Ooh. Awesome. And also like, okay, I guess I'll take $100 for this thing I now charge $10,000 for. Yeah. Nope, for sure. And even back in the day with Metropolis, again, I would just do things for them because I love them and want to support them and help them. And eventually, Jeff, the owner, just handed me a big check and he was like, will you please take money? Take the money, which was great. I will say too, when it comes to charging and what you charge, one of my favorite pieces of advice for other business owners is if you're not losing half of your quotes, you need to double your pricing. And you should be too expensive for half the people who want to work with you and that's okay. And it's even hard today for me to remember that. Every time I get off of a call with a client, they're like, yeah, I just I can't even imagine, paying that. Like that's a good thing. That means I'm pricing us correctly. And then you're doing half the work for twice the money. Like I don't have a budget. Like speaking of goals, I have, like I'm not good at like, oh, we're up 15% over last year. Like that's like something that I know I need to worry about, but I have never done that. Last year, I mean, financially, we did a lot of of money that came in, but a lot of money went out. Like we did a lot of, I spent a lot of money on education and, you know, things along those lines. And so we, you know, our profit wasn't what it could be. But my bookkeeper wasn't upset about it, but she's like, we need to make a budget for things. Like you can't just like blow 10 grand on a course because you want, you know, like, I'm like, but we'll benefit from it, I'm sure in some capacity. And so she made this thing, this spreadsheet, and it was like, this is 10% increase, and this is a 20% increase. And she's like, oh, by the way, you're up 12% this year over last year at this time. Oh, okay. Can't we just live with that? Like, isn't that... I don't want to see, like, oh, God, this is 20%. And I don't want to think about what I have to do to make that happen. And cutting expenses. I'm like, I don't want to go through and get cheaper coffee. Or I kind of get this, like, oh, no. This is where I become a terrible business person. I'm bad at the actual... I just want things just to happen and not have to actually put too much thought into it. Yeah. For me, it's like I look at my profit margin, and I have this moment where I'm like, oh, it's not as high as I want it to be. And then I realized that my biggest expense is payroll, and that a lower profit margin to me means success, because it means that I am sharing our revenue with my staff to help them buy houses and have babies and live their dream lives and whatever that means to them. And a lower profit margin to me, as twisted as it is, I guess I'm not a very good capitalist, but to me that's success. That means that I am supporting the families that work for me and the people who work for me. And that allows me to contribute to their success and not just hoard our revenue. Right. And it's certainly during COVID, I was grateful for our nest egg. I'm glad I have a much bigger nest egg now than I've ever had before because of COVID. But when I can keep that profit margin low, it means I'm actually paying it out to people who make it work. Yeah, that is the goal. I will say that one of the best things that came out of COVID is like, I mean, I know I'm making jokes, but not understanding budgets and things, but like, My business is way... I mean, there are no cracks. Like it is... I mean, I have really... I mean, there are some cracks. I mean, nothing's perfect. But like I have... It's so much stronger than it was. I had to know everything more than I used to before. Like they were like... Like marketing. Like we don't really put a whole lot of money into marketing. But I've Googled myself. We were on the fifth page. And I'm like, how is that possible? You know? So like I hired an SEO company. And now we're on the first page. You know? Like it's... It's like, you know, you kind of are realizing... I'm able to have, now, especially now we're beyond rebooking 700 weddings from 2020. We're able to step back and actually talk on the business, not just in it. Yeah. I don't think you're alone. I think every business who survived COVID is a stronger business because of it. Certainly, some industries were impacted more than others, like food and beverage or restaurants, and then they've gotten hit by supply chains or inflation, et cetera. But we are all just so much stronger because of our first national challenge, group challenge of COVID. And I'm so grateful for it. It's a horrible thing. Hundreds of thousands of people have died. COVID is terrible, but I personally feel like it took me going through COVID to not rest on my laurels and to actually learn how to be a better business person at a time where my business is 18 years old. And I've kind of been doing it for a long time. And I'm grateful that it shocked my actress sketch hard enough to make me really rethink how we operate. I had been mostly checked out of Toast & Jam, and this brought me back in a real way and made me realize that it was my first love, and it was the thing that I'm actually good at, and why am I trying to do all these other things when this is what I really love. So thank you so much, Scout. This has been amazing to get to know you in a different way. I ran into you at that Nabo meeting, and you said an amazing thing that I had been thinking about ever since when you were like, why don't we network in our pajamas? Why do we wear heels? And I really think that you need to bring more comfort to networking. I would love that. I've been talking about having an event here at the studio. We have hundreds of bottles of wine that we've designed. That are just like chilling? Like literally just sitting on the floor in our closet because we get samples of every wine label we design and then you don't want to drink it because you made it. And now we've hundreds and hundreds of bottles of wine. So I think I'm going to have to host a shoeless pajama network event here at the studio for entrepreneurs in Chicago. I will DJ it. Let's do it. Oh my god, you guys, you heard it here first. Yes, you hordes of listeners, make sure that you sign up for our pajama networking. My dozens of listeners. We'll definitely put it in the newsletter. So, well, Scout, thank you so much. How do people find you? What are the things that you do? Yes, well, coming soon next week, we're launching the new DesignScout.com, which is our brand new website. Not dot TV. I know, we're switching. Look at that. I know, I think it's like dot Transylvania or something, but I've had dot TV for 20 years. We're switching to dot com. DesignScout.com featuring our very first sizzle reel. Oh. Baby's first sizzle reel. It's really fun, though. And I made a new one that's also Wes Anderson inspired. It's Wes Anderson meets Drunk History. I'll send it to you off. It's amazing. Anyway, you've got a sizzle reel. Yes. Yeah. Check out the new design scout.com and you can follow us on Instagram at design scout. If you want to listen to my vented podcast, it's hyper specific to the wine industry. So you probably don't but it's vented by Scout Driscoll and then coming soon. We'll have our new branding podcast. So check out the new design scout.com and you can follow us on Instagram at design scout. If you want to listen to my vented podcast. It's hyper specific to the wine industry. Coming soon we'll have our new branding podcast launching hopefully in a couple months. What's it it can be called. I don't know. Branding shit. I have no idea. In branding shit. Yeah. But yeah. And also I'm super active on LinkedIn. So if you want to learn about both the wine industry and branding in general, and follow what's happening at the studio, just find me on LinkedIn as Scout Driscoll. Excellent. All right. Well, Scout, thank you so much. Thanks for listening to All Up In My Lady Business, a podcast from a Mary Nisi production. It is written by me, Mary Nisi. It is edited by Amelia Ruby with Softer Sounds. It is recorded at the Toast & Jam offices in Logan Square in Chicago, Illinois. And it is also sometimes recorded in the attic of my house in Evanston. You can find resources and links from this episode in the show notes at allupinmyladybusiness.com. And if you enjoyed this episode, and you did, smash that subscribe button and send it to somebody whose ass could be a whole lot holer. Oh, and also, if you're the kind of person that reviews things on the internet, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It really does help people find the show. And don't forget, whatever you do this week, do it with your whole ass. Thanks for listening. Music.