Eight Apps In A Trenchcoat with Anna Vogelzang

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Everything has become online, like to the point where like you don't own anything and everything's subscription based. And, you know, like it's like it feels like everything is kind of pushing us all to the internet. So that learning's online, making art is online, you know, everything you the way you buy things. I hate not having like concert tickets. Like it's like the saddest thing in the world to me. I know, yeah. Um, like, but like every you you it's on your phone, there's no everything is just ephemeral and doesn't exist. My business is your business. It's all about in my lady business with me. Very easy. Thank you so much for tuning in today. I have the illustrious uh folk task, Anna Vogelzang. Hi, Anna. Hi, thanks for having me. I spent the morning listening to your music. Well, that's nice. I did. It's really good. Anna is a folk singer. Yeah. Indie folk. Sure. Or just straight up folk.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

No, Andy folk, please.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Andy folk. Uh, and she has been a musician for a very long time. Your EPs go back very far.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Oh, yeah. It's embarrassing. A lot of stuff's not on the internet anymore. And I think I'm gonna go back and try to take a couple more things off the internet. Oh. Scrub them. Scrub them off there. Why would you take those off? Uh it's I am just embarrassed of who I was at that time. And the reason I haven't done it, there are two records of mine that you cannot get unless they are on CD. And I haven't um like I purposefully don't have them on streamers. And I the I just think she was trying so hard and sh and and I love her now so much. And also, like, I want there to be a separation of who I was then and who I am now. Have you ever heard that Ira Glass quote? I when I teach, I use this in like workshops and stuff. He's he there's this big quote where I was talks about taste. So he's like, when you start doing something creative, you have really good taste, and that's why you got into it because you love cool stuff, but you don't can I curse on this? Absolutely. Okay, okay. I mean, I figured, but just I mean, do you know me?

SPEAKER_00 2:30

You're like barely, but I know.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

I mean, of course, no, yes, obviously I can, but it's just checking. Uh, but like you you love cool shit, right? And so you want to start making your own cool shit, but there's a gap. And it takes a long time for your talent or your skill, not even talent, just like your skill set to to bridge the gap to where you are making the stuff that is as good as what you like. And I think that, and and when people, this is a very long quote. I'm trying, I'm paraphrasing all of it, but when people hit that point where they're like, oh, the thing I make is not very good, but I like this stuff that's really good. I'm just gonna stop making stuff. Like, that is the point where everyone quits because you're so frustrated and you're like, this is never gonna go anywhere. What am I doing? But it's why am I wasting my time? Why am I wasting my life doing this thing? And if you can push through it, then eventually your skill will catch up. And all of a sudden you'll hit this like integration almost of like, oh my I feel like my music is what I'm trying to make uh finally 20 years later. And I think that that that so that is the reason why when I think about those old records, like I can't listen to them and I I don't um I think that I just had a really fun time and I was exploring and learning my craft, but I did I like learned my craft in public. Like I I like put everything on a record that I made. My first my first two records were thesis state like projects for school for college. So how Bell and Sebastian of you. Right. And so I was like very like, oh, I'm just gonna like wrote a like a anyway, it was pretty dumb. But I'm uh so those are just only on CD now. You can't get them. Because I'm like, no one needs to hear this.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Well, although the I feel like the youth are going back to physical media and that's true and and trying to have things and own things.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

So um, you know, you they it might uh uh one might kind of emerge from a from a used record bin and then all of a sudden the amount my dad just like they in in during COVID, they sold the house I grew up in and um well not high school, high school house, and they had five boxes of my first album and he shipped them to me and I was like, what am I gonna do with this garbage? So I have five, I have five hundred copies of that first record because at the time you couldn't press less than a thousand copies of something.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Yeah. I'm like, I'm like, I love the optimism of buying a thousand CDs and you're like, I'm gonna sell these CDs. It's gonna be like, you know, like going from ra radio station to radio station, you know, totally.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Me and my, what was it before the Prius? Me and my Sable, Mercury Sable used just in that car? Well, yes, yeah. I spent most of my 20s on tour. Um, and it was just like I learned early on. I wish I my I spent a lot of time, I'm sure you have too where you're like, think about the trajectory of things and you're like, man, I wish my trajectory had been a little bit different. Like I wish I hadn't like dug in so hard in this one one area. But for that, I learned in high school that like this is what DIY musicians do. Like they play at the clubs and then they go on tour in the van. And so, um, and I got to go tour with some friends and like be the merch girl and sing backup vocals. And so, and I like learned how to make a like a physical press kit. Um, and so all of those things were dying as I learned them. And then when I graduated college, I was like, fuck this, I'm going on tour. And I spent a six weeks, the first tour I ever did was six weeks on the road with my now husband, who's my bass player, my best friend. We co-headlined, if you will. Uh, our f other friend who played fiddle, and then um our drummer was in a separate car behind us. And it was like, we booked it. I booked it by calling venues, looking at other people's tour schedules and calling venues and booking the shows. And my husband, who was my boyfriend at the time, was like, Do you are you sure you want to play at a venue who's never heard your music? Like, cause they would just book you on that, like you'd call and be like, Hey, we got two people. She's from New York City, yeah. I'm from Pit, I'm from like Pittsburgh, and we're gonna go, you know. And they're like, Yeah, sure. Thursday night, barking spider tavern, Columbus, Ohio, or whatever the fuck. And, you know, like no one came to the gigs because no one knew who the fuck we were, other than MySpace people. That was the MySpace era.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

But did but like, is isn't the whole point of touring relentlessly and coming back? Is that like first there's four people and then there's 30 people? Yeah. And then there yeah, is I mean, did that how it went?

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Kind of. In a couple places it worked. In a couple, I the what I was gonna say earlier is like, I wish I hadn't focused on the whole eastern seaboard. And I wish I had like tried to be like regional to where I lived. Um, because I actually lived in Chicago for a year right out of college. And instead of being like Chicago, Madison, Minneapolis, I was like Boston, Maine, friggin' South Carolina. Like I just went everywhere. Yeah, truly. SUNY Purchase, like anywhere that would fucking book me uh east of the Mississippi, I went. And so there were a couple pockets, like Knoxville got like was a really sweet place for me. St. Louis was a really sweet place, Louisville, um, Charlottesville, Virginia. Like there were places that I built stuff. Uh I always went to Portsmouth, New Hampshire because I had a bunch of friends who made music there. And some of that too just ended up being like an excuse to visit friends um and places with them. Yeah. And it was great. It was, I it was the perfect way to spend my 20s. It just like when I think about my career, I'm like, oh yeah, I guess that wasn't. I was really I so I can I can draw like 10 people in a lot of places. But like, like there are like two places where I can draw like a hundred people, you know. Um, maybe three, three cities where I can draw.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Those hundred people places make you forget about the 10 people places.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Yeah, but that's 20 years later, right? Like that, like truly it's 2026. So it's it's 19 years since that tour. And I am like, yeah, I can. I mean, those are hometown. Like Madison was I lived in Madison for eight years and then LA and then here.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

And so And did the internet always exist while you were making music, like in a like distributing music kind of way?

SPEAKER_02 8:40

Yeah. So I graduated high school in 2003 and the internet was like Napster lime wire, burning CDs for your friends. So it was like the internet, but like still physical. So you like had to put the internet on a CD. And then I, you know, like reached out to a person I thought was a local musician, I thought was cool, like on the internet and was like emailed them and was like, hey, can I come sell merch at your show? And they were like, Yeah. So, you know, there were there was definitely like the internet in that way of discovering and deciding what we thought was cool. And older, like older siblings telling us, this is cool, you should look this up. And then you you go in on LimeWire and like try to find it, and you'd get some weird ass live B-side version of the song. And then you're like, Well, that's what that song is. And there's like, no, there's also the radio. Um, and the radio existed. The radio was still important at the time.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

When you think back on the tour, on like spending your 20s touring and doing well, for actually rate, go back to one thing. So you like would email people and ask if you'd sell merch at their merch at their show.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

Yeah, that was one particular person. Yes. I mean, it was like uh once I learned what a merch girl was, I was like, oh, this is a way to get into the show for free and to hang out with the musicians. And um, I was like, you know, 16 and I could go to the rock clubs in Boston, which is where I grew up. And so I could like go to the paradise and get it, and they wouldn't card me, and I could hang out and like drink in the green room and then be like hanging out with cool people. I only really did that like twice.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

It's ingenious though. Like that is yeah, I mean, because like having a merch person is like the hard part. Like you're gonna pay somebody to like go on tour with you.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

And if you can find a young person who's like just wants to be around it. And one of the bands who I did that with, who I met a different way, but um, was the Dresden Dolls, and because they were in Boston and they were coming up at the time. And so we were all good friends my last two years of high school. And I would like skip school and go to Boston and help make press kits. And like I would like like flyer for the band in town and stuff like that. And so um I was the mod of their live journal community, if that means anything. So, you know, that was the vibe. And so when I was a freshman in college, Amanda called me and was like, Hey, we want you to come on tour with us. You can sing with us on two songs every night. And then you can yeah. This was the Dresden dolls was her band.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

And you can um sell merch for us and like help us. And I was like, absolutely. And I skipped fucking school. Like I left, like I they got me a they bought me a train ticket. I think it started in Philly, and it was only a week, and then it ended in Pittsburgh. So they knew I was like, and I went to school in Pittsburgh. So they were like, we'll drop you off after the Laga show. And I was like, great. And it was like DIY touring. And I had and I had already known them from high school, so it was it was not a weird, and I had sold merch for them in the city and I had sung with them on stage before. I actually got to sing with them at Lollapalooza in 2006. That was like a big, cool shit. That was crazy because it was Flaming Lips, the Dresden dolls, and then I'm gonna get it, Sonic Youth across. So it was like everyone was there because they wanted to be there for Flaming Lips and Sonic Youth. And so I sang this one song that I always sang with them. And I I like I, of course, all the photos like are like this big from uh 2006. But yeah, that was I was still in college, but I was coming to the city, I was coming to Chicago to visit family at the same time as, and I was like, hey, I want to see La Lala. And then they were like, Oh, come sing with us. And I was like, Okay. It's like crazy. They I it um a lot of people have strong feelings about them and Amanda and Bryan and the like the band and and the people, but for me, they were like one of the people right ahead, like a step ahead of me making real things happen. And then they also brought me in. So it was a very like um, it it was just one of those, uh, I don't know. It was like a learning experience. I think for the on their part, it was smart to be like essentially a high school intern, right? Like you, you have, you find the kids who are willing to help out and you make it go that way. But also that was my whole idea of like a scrappy punk band. And so I toured that way, not realizing that if I had just like stayed fucking put and work and worked regionally and gotten big where I lived, then it would have made more sense to start going out in circles. But you know, I I needed to be gone, I needed to be driving a lot, I needed to be um playing as much as I could play, and I got better.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Well, and the road, I mean, like the there's a romantic there's like a romance to the road, you know? Like I would have killed to been touring in my 20s. Like I I didn't think that I had the ability to be in a band. Like I was just always like the girl at the rock club. Like I, you know, I just I went to every show, went to a lot of shows, and I just was the girl. And it like, and you're not really given a lot of weight as just the girl that hangs around and watches m rock and roll music that I get made. And uh like to be able to go on tour would be, I don't know, it's like I it's like a dream, like a dream that I think I would could never have qualified for.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Well, absolutely. And the the dream of like even that one week in college going out with them and being like at the Denny's in the morning and like being it just felt like I was in a fucking indie movie the whole time. And I was like, this is and like our friend of our, we stayed at a friend's house and he's this like amazing photographer. And so then he took all these amazing photos of us in the morning, and then I had like a headshot, like like a like a promo photo. It wasn't even a headshot, but it was like a super beautiful close-up of me. And I was like, Oh my god, now I have a photo for my internet presence. Like, you know, it just it was this like, this is how the world is. And again, like all that shit was changing, not not as much at the time when I graduated college and started touring, but it was changing. I remember the first South by where I went and like a Spotify truck came.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

And I was like, What year was that?

SPEAKER_02 14:26

I don't know. I it must have been like 2010. Okay, 11. Maybe somewhere in there. And um, it was like, I just remember being like, what's Spotify? And people were talking about, I was like, well, this is terrible. It was the same thing when like temples stopped putting CDs in their laptops, and it was like, well, this is my whole livelihood gone because all you ever did was put your CD into your laptop, rip it, and then have it in your fucking iPod. But you had to do that physical maneuver, and then all of a sudden it was like iPods don't need to make uh matter anymore. Uh CDs don't matter unless you're driving in your car. Like CDs still ha held on for a while because of cars. But then once phones became so ubiquitous and streaming became ubiquitous, it was like, oh never mind. Like we yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

It's really weird when you when I think back, because I mean I started DJing weddings in 2003, I think, was when I started. And just watching the evolution from, you know, like everything's on CD to learning how to download stuff. And like all of a sudden, it's like you just don't even have like you the the physical media just kind of completely disappeared. Yeah. And, you know, I guess the streaming of it all taking over. Like, do you make any money off of streaming? No, ma'am.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

No. I I think my check last year, or like, you know, my what I reported, I put this on the internet. I think what I reported on my taxes was like$8 or like$12. I mean, it's like I I am not uh so I'm not huge in the streaming game as is. Like I have friends who they've had songs be on the top of like chill playlist, right? And they make not like millions of dollars, definitely not thousands, maybe like a thousand dollars, or maybe in the two or three thousand dollars. But like it's not, it's not an income, even if it's really, really successful, right? Like it's not how we let that stand alone.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

It's weird.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

It's so fucked up. It's so fucked up. And um, and you know, the I remember like when iTunes came out and it was like a song is a dollar, and every it was like 99 cents for a track. And I was like, who made that rule? Like that I remember really being upset about it. I was like, it should be like two dollars, you know, whatever. Especially at the time, like CDs could be 25 bucks or 20 bucks. And so then it was like, well, a CD's 10 songs and it's 20, and now I can't sell this CD. I mean, you get the booklet, but like, holy shit, like how how is that gonna math? Like the mat the I feel like I'm I have been in this very particular window of like everything getting smaller and smaller and smaller as my career continues to move forward. And it's like, I mean, there is no, there is no like financial uh in uh I'm thinking of the right word. Incentive incentive to be a musician. Like none. You gotta really want to make some fucking art, you know?

SPEAKER_00 17:11

I well, I mean, I think that's to be said for I mean, every musician should have started off like not thinking about money. I mean, that's probably the you know, you gotta get the t the skills down, the talent down, figuring how to do things. And I do it's like I I didn't even know about like a friend getting a met getting a song on a on the chill playlist. Like they they make chill, like they make a playlist that they just pull together and then if and then they distribute it as like the chill. And then if you if you get on it, are you told or you just get yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

So there's a back end for artists on, and I'm really just talking about Spotify, but Amazon has the same thing, iTunes says the same thing. So there's a back-end portal where it's like Apple music for artists, Spotify for artists. And so what happens is you can pitch yourself for these playlists. So I I have for my new record, I pitched everything the quote unquote right way, right? Like we did it with enough time, we but we pitched it through the portal. There are people who work at Spotify who are real people, not robots, and they know people at distribution level. So that could be a distribute. So now there are these companies that are like just digital distribution companies, not like DistroKit and CD Baby, but people who their whole goal is to get you playlisted. And I've heard people at like conferences and whatever be like, don't pay those people money. It's a scam. However, I have quite a few friends who have been on these boutique distribution um rosters and they get placed. Like they're because their person on the roster knows who to email and says, Hey, I got this kid coming up, and they have this new song, it'd be perfect for new folk Americana or new whatever the thing is. And so there are there's like best of folk, best of Americana, best of roots, there's like best of indie rock, there's so the all of those are curated playlists. A lot of them are AI now. So if it's like Big Thief Radio, that's AI, I from what I can tell. I'm just guessing. But the ones that are like Spotify presents the best of Americana and it changes every week. And so if you have a single, and and then your thing will stay on there for a while, but they add new stuff every week. So if it's like best new folk, and it's called, I think it's called fresh folk or something like that. If you, if your single comes out that week, they might put it on that playlist. And the only I don't know if they would, I've I've never gotten one. So I don't know if they email you, but I think you could, I know that you can see other people have put me on their playlists, and you can see that on the back end of your artist page because it's like where are your streams coming from? This public playlist, this public playlist. So, but if you get put on like, so then they're then you also have to think about the op the other side of that coin is the listener who only listens to like fresh folk because they want to hear the new stuff. It's essentially like listening to the radio now, right? Is like playlists. So if you can get on a or there's a friggin' anthropology and they're playing that at their store. Like who knows? So if you get those plays where it's on all the time in a business or it's something that's really widely listened to and safed onto their library, well, then you're gonna get a lot more back on the dollar than Do you see that you're on the anthropology playlist?

SPEAKER_00 20:23

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

I I mean, probably, yeah. I I think you could, but also it used to be like, remember when like Starbucks had the compilation CDs and that was a big deal? Yeah. So like I think my guess is that anthropology, for example, or star, I don't know what Starbucks deal is anymore with the music, but my guess is like they don't even use Spotify. They probably use some third party where they don't have to pay where and then they pay you can have like a ass cap kind of like a like an in-person royalty. So they pay their like flat royalty fee, and then they use some kind of, but I would doubt it would be a big streamer, but maybe it would be a big streamer. I don't know. But they probably have like an in-house curated thing, I would guess. I'm just guessing.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Yeah, I know. It's it's inter it's an it's it's it's interesting concept when you think about where like all the places where you hear music and like how like is that being compensated? Is it not like I I remember, I mean, especially when you could think about like like I mean the BMI ass cap of it all, like there was a coffee shop in um this is a million years ago, but they were playing uh trip radio, like and they got like busted for not um like having BMI and ass cap. They weren't paying into BMI or ass cap. And so they got super busted. And it's like I don't under I don't I kind of don't understand that.

SPEAKER_02 21:39

I don't understand why you can't just play stuff in places and I mean you hear music everywhere and the idea there has to be an agreement between Yeah, and that's just the royalty, and that that is like again, like if you go to a c music conference, there's like seven different panels about royalties because it's so fucking convoluted. But I will say that like as an ass cat person. My I still somehow make like another like, yeah, I'd say like$15 a year or something like that. Just because my they are tracking. So like Spotify, so your distribution pays you, meaning spot, like whoever you use, I use DistroKid. So like they pay, they're the middle person between me and Spotify, Apple Music, et cetera. So and for you an independent user, it's great because you can just upload all your shit, all your artwork, all your lyrics, and then it pushes them out to the different platforms. So you pay them to do that. You have like a like a membership or whatever. So you're losing that money. And then they pay you the, I think it's like, I think I it's the 0.0003 cents uh per play or whatever. And that's not them, that's Spotify, right? Coming back. So, and then certain ones like CD Baby takes a cut of what that of what comes in. Other people have a flat rate that doesn't have to do with it. You know, it just depends on, or maybe I have that in I have that inversed. But anyway, there's all these distribution companies. This is like so niche and specific.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

No, I love it though. It's very interesting. I just it's knowing how this works, no one knows. It just happens.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

So, so like, yeah, you have you have to submit, you have to like get it out distributed, right? So you get your money from distribution from Spotify, Apple Music, et cetera. But because you use, let's say, DistroKid, all that money comes back to your DistroKid account. And then you go in and it's like, you've made$10 this year. Do you want to take it out into your bank account? Oh, sure, great. The other side of that coin is publishing. And publishing is Ask Cap BMI. And so anytime anything is performed, you are supposed to get a publishing royalty. So there's publishing royalties, there's mechanical royalties, which I only vaguely understand. And then there's the actual money you make when it's getting played. And that is separate from publishing. So you should be getting paid like three times every time your song plays somewhere if you are dialed into the right stuff. Um, and then when you get into like TV and film, it gets even crazier because there's like you get a mechanical royalty every time it gets played, you get a publishing royalty. But then you also probably had some kind of deal. A friend of mine was on playing her own song on TV. And so like she got this like it was like her publish, it was like she got paid because she performed her own song. She got like a performance royalty as as the artist, but then she also got the publishing royalty as the writer. And then and that kid, she's took, you know, continues to see money from that, which is Oh really?

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Oh, like she was like playing in like she was like playing in like a full like in a in a coffee shop on Dawson's Creek or something, and then girls, and she's like herself playing in a bar.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

Yeah. And they like they like did a whole minute of the music. It was amazing. I remember it happening, and it was like at the height of girls. And we were all just like, oh my God. It was amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

And but even with the ten dollars that you see at that, like how many it would be interesting to see the the full value and then like a ri an itemized receipt of every single person who gets a little bit of that before it gets to you.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Absolutely. Yeah. Like and there's a what do you think that is? Oh God. Um, I don't know. Yeah. It it's gotta be, you know, if you look at the like real well, really, it's like the 0.3, 0.003 cents or whatever from Spotify that goes to DistroKid. And then I believe DistroKid takes a percentage of that. So that's that's that direct line. But then you also look at like Spotify has to, I think at I don't even know who pays the money for ASCAP BMI. Like who, like, I don't know. I think it's the person, I think it's the platform.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Well, no, it's the the places that like so for instance, like a restaurant pays monthly fees.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

But users don't pay a publishing fee. Like that's wrapped into their Spotify membership because they don't, they're not like playing it out loud at a thing. You know what I mean? So there's like there's that component too. But I mean, it's the when you're independent and small, you kind of I personally like hit a wall where I'm like, I don't give a shit. Like, I'm only gonna make like$50. Like, and I spent$12,000 making this record or whatever the number was. So like, who gives a fuck? Like, I am just gonna try to get it out there as much as I can. And I think there's been that, and and then when you do sell merch, if you at a show, that's really the only recoup. Like, people talk about merch and performance being like the ways to recoup, but like performance gets harder and harder unless you're solo. And and merch is is great. And also like you have to have really high like people, like you have to have high numbers for it to pay off what you have to pay in, if that makes sense. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

So there's just no money at all to be made in music. Not really.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

I mean, I know people are doing it. People are but and then I have friends who are doing it who are like on labels and and they're unhappy and they're hardly making ends meet too. And they're like big people.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

And it's weird because like, I don't know, when we as a society need to turn to things for either happiness or sadness or whatever, it's always art, it's always music or whatever. And it's weird how much we rely upon art to get us through our lives, but don't want to pay for it.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Yeah, totally. It's you know, I think that the amount of people, especially now who like go out to live shows, like there are people who um, who I know here in Evanston, where we live, who go to Evanston Space once a month without knowing who the person is. Like they just buy a ticket once a month on a night that works for them because they want to support live music. I know two people who do that because they've come up to me at shows and been like, hey, I saw you play here one time. You know this person. I'm like, oh yeah, it's my friend, or I'm just here because I like their music. And I'm like, yeah, I don't, I don't know them. I just came to support. And I'm like, you are an angel because that doesn't really happen anymore because we're all on our fucking phones. And so, and also like we're at a different point in life, whatever. I remember I had my son and I was like, nobody ever has to come to a show of mine ever again. The fact that I ever expected anybody to come to a concert is crazy. Like I just had this huge, like, ego death. Cause I was like, oh, this what? How did I ever take for granted that I could get people to come to a concert? Leaving the house is so hard. Um, but you know, I think that like there is now I look at people in their 20s, it's just a and it's like there are still kids who go to concerts for sure. Like people go to shows, but it doesn't feel like the it feels now like it's really boutique. Like going to a show is like a thing.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Yeah. It's not just baked into your habits.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Right. And my so my little sister is 20, what year is that? She's 25. She'll no, she's 24. And she was here um two summers ago visiting. So she's 22. And I was like, oh, hey, this the weekend you're coming is Evanston Folk Festival. Well, go. I know a bunch of people playing. I'll buy you a ticket. She was like, Oh, okay, great. And we get there and we're like walking around and like drinking our drinks and saying hi to people. And I'm like, so, and I forget how I asked the question, but I think I said, like, who are you the most excited to see or something? And she's like, Oh, I'm excited to see these. And I was like, What? I I forget what I asked her, but I basically said, like, well, the last time you went to a festival, what'd you do? And she was like, Oh, I've never been to a festival. And I was like, What? And she was like, Well, when would I have gone to a festival? Like, she graduated high school in COVID in 2020. And so her whole like high school career and and beginning in college, like she went to call a lot of kids stayed home and didn't go to college because it like was like you had the choice. She went and lived in the dorm, but and by the time she graduated, it was a little more normal. But like she had just graduated that year, I think. And she was, she just had, but like she just had never been to a fucking festival. And I was like, Where was she? She uh grew up in Boston and then she went to William and Mary outside of uh Richmond, Virginia. Yeah, yeah, Richmond, Charlottesville. Oh, yeah, there were opportunities, but like also she's a different kid than I was, and and it wasn't part of her Kate. I love you if you're listening to this. I'm not trying to throw you under the bus. But like that was she fucking loves music. She is like they I have three younger sisters and they're all in their 20s. And I I ask them all the time for like, I'm like, what's cool? Like, send me, send me some playlists. But you know, she's like who introduced me to like Noah Khan. She was, she like goes to concerts. Like she went to a Chaperone concert last summer, like and by herself. And like she like, she will go to this kind of like stadium shows, but she had never been to a festival, and she doesn't go to like small venue shows, like the kind of thing I play. And that I think is different. I think there are like the youth, capital Y, who go to like the Allstate Arena. And then I think there's like the youth who go to the empty bottle or the hideout or Shuba's or whatever it is. And like, you know, like she does, she's just not one of those kids. She's a kid who goes to like big, big shows, but I just couldn't, I I was like, holy shit. And then she like got mad at me for judging her.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

And then when you think about how much, how much I got out of, I mean, it's weird to think that that isn't happening. But the other thing is it was like seven dollars to get in. 100%. Like it used to be max$12 to get into a show. And if it was$12, it was like, it better fucking be good. It better be fucking super chunk if I'm seeing if I'm paying$12 for a band.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Totally. But and like those shows, it's like that was where the social happened. That was how you socialized with people. It's like you went to shows and hung out at the bar, and then you stopped and watched the rock show, and then you went back to the bar. Like now it's like, and also like, God bless them, you have a lot of kids who don't drink and like who don't want to go out and drink. So it's like they don't need to go to a bar. They want to go to like a friend's house and stream a movie. Like, like, you know, and I'm sure that like there is like the same conversation around fucking movie theaters and like entertainment that way. And I'm sure like it's it's just like I don't want to sound like get off my lawn like at all. Like, I just think that like things have changed a lot. And not only have like we moved away from that um kind of like the live show as the social center, but also just like everything is is accessible all the time on the phone. And so there's just a different, it's a different, it's a different generation of kids coming up now. And so then you're just like, okay, like what's gonna happen to rock music? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Well, I mean, I have to put some faith into the kids that are going towards the uh hard mediums, but I do one of the things I think about, this is a left turn, uh, is just how everything has become online, like to the point where like you don't own anything and everything's subscription based. And, you know, like it's like it feels like everything is kind of pushing us all to the internet so that learning's online, making art is online, you know, everything you the way you buy things. I hate not having like concert tickets. Like it's like the saddest thing in the world to me. I know, yeah. Um like, but like every you it's on your phone, there's no everything is just ephemeral and doesn't exist. And I'm like, is this, is this the is this the what do they call it? Not the simulation, the um the singularity. Singularity. That's the word I'm trying to figure out. Where we're all just plugged into the meta world and there's like nothing that exists offline. And like nothing makes me feel like this is more than when I or this is more relevant, is when I think when I go to like Sebastian's like parent-teacher conference. And I'll talk to one teacher and they're like, well, you gotta log into Doomflow. And then the next teacher is you gotta plug into Acuity, and then you gotta go into this one, get an approval number, and then you're gonna go in the other one. It's like everything is an app. It's all just been, it's all just like eight apps in a trench coat that are like keeping my son's education together. And it's like, can we just go back to paper and pen? I know. Can we just go? And I and I can't tell if I'm like like resistant to, you know, the telegraph. You know, you know, because I don't, I don't want to lose, I don't want him to lose the ability to be able to research something in a book.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

Well, yeah. It's it is a um it's a new fucking world. I my husband is um in academia and teaches undergrads and grad students, and I, and it's it's like it's a new fucking world. Like all the A, like he has to be really clear about AI guidelines, he has to, you know, um, this idea of research and like what we had to do. And actually, even I went so when I went to school, I was um, I went to school for undergrad for opera, and we had a library with yeah, with scores. And so if you had to find a piece of music, you had to physically walk to the library. There was always you like use the fucking it now, it was a computer lookup system, but then you found the number and you went and found the score and you pulled it and you photocopied the music you wanted from it. Like that was the what you did. And you had to photocopy three pieces: one for your teacher, one for your companist, one for yourself. So there was this like system, and there was always like one copy of each thing. And so when they would announce the show for the year, the person, like I remember very clearly a person go in our class, and the class is like 15 people, would go and get the score for the opera and take it out, and then nobody else could get it, and then you had to fucking try to buy it on the internet, which was very expensive. And it just was this like there was this this physicality of the process, right? And then you had your fucking binder with all your photocopies, and this was your this was your voice journal, whatever. Um, I have not sung classically in a really long time. And my cousin just got married downtown Chicago at Fourth Press and asked if I would sing Ave Maria. And I was like, Yeah, of course. And then I was like, what the fuck have I done? And I getting from like point A to point B of like downloading the sheet music in whatever key I wanted, finding a million recordings on the internet of other people singing this, including YouTube tutorial, like lessons. Like, here's how to sing Ave Maria. And I was like, What? Like remark, like, and I a friend of mine who I'd gone to undergrad with who's still singing classically, she I was like, I started practicing and I sent her a text that was like, my um kind of like my intuition is telling me I need to like schedule a lesson with someone at Northwestern and like get yelled at. Like that is the that is the vibe of classical music. And I know two teachers there who I worked with right after college. And I was like, should I text them and like have like pay$400 for a voice lesson? And she was like, absolutely not. Do not put yourself back in the system. I will, if you want, I will coach you on FaceTime. And I was like, you can coach someone on FaceTime? Like I didn't even, because I'm like, well, you have to be in the room because you're like touching your body and you're moving around and like the sound is pure. And like she was like, no, girl, I take all my lessons on FaceTime now. And I was like, what? So she and I, she coached me on FaceTime for a week, and it was so much more helpful. It was very like healing. Like we both undid a lot of trauma, which was really helpful because classical music is just like an abusive fucking system. But also, like, it's it's terrible. But also, it was like the the thing that was the most helpful in all of the thing. There was the YouTube, and there was like listening to other artists. The thing that was the most helpful was videotaping myself. And she told me to do this. And then as soon as I did it, I was like, oh, great. Videotaping myself singing it, and then watching it back really specifically with the score and giving myself notes and was like, okay, so I'm pointing to my cheekbone. So like this is where that vowel was. Now I'm gonna try it with the vowel here, a millimeter higher. And then I would do it, and I would say, Oh, that's too high, a millimeter under. Okay, that's the one. But it's like, it's like doing uh, it's like doing a sport, like where you're like every move has to be really choreographed. But it was so much fucking work, but usually like all of those tools did not exist when I was in school. So the fact that like I was like, this is amazing, like coming back to it and like, wow, the internet has made everything so much easier.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

Well, and it makes you think like, what was I even like like how much of your process was removed by the convenience? What like what what are they learning if they didn't have to do all that? Like was the act of photocopying three copies, was that part of the like memorization process that you didn't even realize? Sure, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. And then like also like finding other things in the score book you're looking at, like, oh, I'm gonna get this art song she told me to get.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

And then, oh, what's that? Oh, I can well, well, maybe I'll take this too.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

And then, you know, just like finding shit, like looking in a book and mean surprise nicely surprised by something, you know. What did you do it already? Did I yeah, I did it in um it was in August. It was awesome. I fucking nailed it.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Oh, the Maria that one my mother sang uh my mother sang at all the weddings at our church, and uh and that song was very much a part of my childhood. Yeah, I I had never sung it.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

I knew it, but I had never sung it. And my mom was the was the music director at our church as well, and I had sung at my church a lot growing up, but they got married at Fourth Press, and so it's a beautiful room, and I got to stand up in the little perch. Like everything that I had been working so hard on was um kind of like everything got glided over and glossed over by the room. Like anything that I was worried about sounding weird or misplaced or this, like it was like the fucking reverb of that room and the sound of that room. I was like, oh, I could do uh we like ran it once before the wedding, and I was like, I could do anything and it would sound nice. This is amazing. Um, and you know, like that you go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Is that a factor? Like when you're thinking about places where you're performing, like what does the room sound like? And I'm gonna have to accommodate for this because this room doesn't have very good. Yeah, not unless you know the room.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Like, like the only I think like so a great example of that one is so classically, probably yes. But again, I haven't sung classically in so long, and that was just because my cousin asked me to, and I missed it a lot. And also I was like, wow, I'm so glad that two weeks of intense training is over because it was like all I could do for two weeks. Um, and it was a little longer than that, but the intensity of it was like two full weeks. Um in terms of my stuff, I know that my sound check at space is not gonna be great, even though they have like some of my favorite people who work there on the board. Um I but I know that it'll sound great once the room is full because it's a big brick room. And every time we sound check, especially if I have like a band with drums, I'm like, oh fuck, this is gonna be fucking terrible. And like my friend Jonas is a sound person there, and he also like does front of house with people on tour, and he's like, who if I could hire somebody to bring on tour, I would hire Jonas. He's incredible. It always sounds great. And and still I'd be like, so I'm like, so it's not him. Because sometimes you go to a venue where you've never played, and you're like, well, this sound guy must be terrible or whatever. And I'm like, it's not him. It just has to be this and like you're playing like boomy drums to an empty fucking room full of brick. It's not something that you can like in my experience, it's not something I think about ahead of time where I'm like, I'm gonna sing this way so that it doesn't, that's not that, but it's like it's a it's actually a kind of like relief to be like, oh right, remember, when I soundcheck its base, it's gonna sound like shit. And then when it's the room is full, it's gonna sound so great. It's gonna sound awesome. I just have to like have faith. And then we get on stage and I'm like, oh, this is fine. So like everything I was worried about was terrible.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

So I I really want to go back to how you got into opera. How did you go to opera school for opera?

SPEAKER_02 41:09

That's interesting. I mean, I I maybe it is to some people. I my mom sang opera when I was growing up. So she went to school for classical voice. Um, and that's another way to say classical voice, right? Opera is just like the the art form that is classical voice. So she did her undergrad for classical voice, and then she did um a master's and she was a music teacher my whole growing up. So she did, she was the music teacher at my middle school. That was interesting. She was also, she always had like four jobs. She was also the qu the music director at our school. She taught at New England Conservatory on the weekends for like a high school extension. She was a chorister in the Boston Lyric Opera, which is its own like year-long job. So, but you're essentially a chorister. So you're in the quote, like the chorus of some, so you're in like two scenes of the whole show, but you would have like evening rehearsals, and then my grandparents would always take us for like the matinee of the sea of whatever the show was, because the show will run for like two or three weeks. So they would take us to see like a Sunday matinee after church, and she and it was always like, Where's mom? Oh, there she is in the back. Cool. I mean, and that for me, so so there was that component. So I was like familiar, right? The great thing about her knowing a lot about the voice was that she never I took a couple voice lessons my senior year of high school, but by that point I was in a band because I joined my first band as soft. I started writing songs my freshman year of high school, and I joined a band, my sophomore year of high school of all dudes. And I was like the lead singer. So there was like, I knew that there was that. I was also really into musical theater, and I loved choir. And so I was in like three choirs, and I also was the head of an a cappella group, and I was in that for four years. We had like seven a cappella groups in my high school, and so I was the, yeah, it was like pitch perfect before pitch perfect happens. It was, I actually just ran into another person who went to my high school at this big international folk music conference, and we were trying to explain to this other gentleman our high school a cappella scene, and we like couldn't do it because uh their name's Bobby, and they were in this one called guacamole, and I was in one called Euphoria, and then there was pitch pipes and mixed nuts and quarter past six, and there was one other one that I can't remember. And we were like talking through all these things, and this guy was like, Is that normal in Massachusetts? And we were like, I don't know. Our school just was very I went to public school, but it was just a very like arts friendly driven school.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

What so is this pre or post glee?

SPEAKER_02 43:27

Oh, pre, way pre. Glee was when I was out of school, out of college. So it was like, and and I was like, fuck yeah, this is awesome. Yeah. So I've always been like a choral nerd, like always, like me too. Like, yeah, I I love it. I mean, honestly, like, and arranging song, like arranging pop songs for the a cappella group and um going to like choral competition with our with our different choirs at school. And um, and then by the time I got to like call talking about college, I thought I was gonna go to school to be a music teacher. So I had a To all these music ed programs. And in that, you have to declare an instrument. So I was just always going to be a voice major with a music ed degree. And when I and then that my so I applied to all these places in my senior year is when I really started hanging out in the city and like doing all of this stuff with the Dresden dolls. And I just started to be, and my band like played in a there was a high school version of the Battle of the Bands for the local radio station that the adult version, the Dresden Dolls won that year. So it was like BC and Battle of Battle of the Rock bands, the dra the dolls won. And that was like everyone knew they were going to, and they were like about, and then they got signed that year. And then our our high school band like won our version. Or actually, I don't know if we won. We tied with another band. What were you called? We were called Random Robot. Yeah. And um they had the name before I joined. And they had like tried a bunch of singers. It was like three boys. And then I the first practice I ever went to, I got there and I like sang, we just like sang some song. And I was, they were like, You were in tune the whole time. And I was like, Yeah, bro. And they were like, You're you're in. I was like, great. And we like wrote songs. I mean, it was actually great. It was a really great experience for like collaborative writing for me. Cause I it was I had always like written songs on my guitar by myself or the piano. And so um, that was really fun. But anyway, that the that was in the mix, like there were all of these different things. So by the time I had I like applied, being like, I'm gonna go to school for music ed. And by the time I actually decided to go to college, I didn't really want to do that anymore. Like there had been this like, actually, I just want to do this. Like, I just want to make my own music or be in a band or like go on tour or whatever. But I I was from a family of like you go to college, and I also wanted I mean, I definitely wanted to like learn more about how to sing or how to sing better or whatever. And I just like loved doing it. I was like, this is what I'll do. And I I went, and then the experience was very different than what I expected. I was like the queer girl with pink hair who like didn't know my friend who FaceTime um coached me just this year, my friend Christine had to like bring me to an HM and like help me buy clothes for a voice seminar because she was like, You cannot wear like there was this whole world where I was like, I'm just gonna wear these like Mary Jane platforms and this like mini skirt. And she was like, No, girl, you gotta like you can't. You cannot look look like this.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Yeah, you're not, you're not the change that's coming to classical music. You have to convince you.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

She was like, you gotta get this together. And so it was, it was a couple years of like really fucking terrible shit. And and um I technically declared my own, I designed my own major at the school because my teacher was like, try she told me later she tried to push me out of the program twice and that this head of the school of music wouldn't let her do it. But it was a conservatory, so it's like it's classical. I mean, and at it was Carnegie Mellon University and at CMU they talk about it on par with Juilliard. Um, you know, it's like it's it's just real fancy shit. And I was really trying to like, I I really just wanted to sing. I don't know. And and I think back to that, I'm like, God, did I ever even like make? I mean, I chose to go there. It was the best school I got into. I was excited about it. Um, but I also was like, now I'm like, well, thank God. Like it, I of course it all worked out really weirdly and wonderfully. But at the time, it's like, why did I stay in this program? That was like so hard and miserable. Um, but were your grades?

SPEAKER_00 47:22

Were your grades good?

SPEAKER_02 47:23

Like, did you grade it? My grades were okay. It was the only time my life I've always been like an A student. It was the only time I got a D and two D's, and I almost failed out uh my first semester. The other thing is like they sign you up ahead of time for your like you have a you don't pick your classes like in college. You like have a schedule given to you. And it's like all of these, so like I got a D in music theory and I got a D in Soulfeg, which is site singing, my first semester. And by the end of my second year of Soulfeg, I was getting A's because I had, but I like had never worked so hard to get better at something. And then I just really coasted through harmony and I like music theory. And I like never should have I I should have been made to retake that class.

SPEAKER_00 48:03

I mean, it's kind of like the chasm of of taste, right? That I was with that we started out this conversation with where like you you you thought you had this and all you needed was a little refining. And then you get in there and you're like, wait a minute, this is way harder. I you know, and you kind of like I I was just at a conference this week and uh and we I was we were talking about how like when you start a business, which is not unlike starting a band or whatever, I would imagine, is like, you know, you and you you have an idea and you know what you're doing, the moxie can fuel you for so long. Yeah. And the grit can just get you by. And then you hit a point where you're like, I know everything that like I've perfected everything I know. I still like this, but all this other is hard. And you have to kind of like push through the shitty hard part to get to like, you know, getting better or what.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

Well, and I think what I realized at the end of that leg, and I just had this conversation with my dad he was visiting a couple of weeks ago, and he was saying that after my senior recital, my voice teacher pulled him aside and was like, you have to get Anna to go to grad school. And he was like, Good luck. Cause at that point I had put out, I'd made as part of my major, I which was in the recording uh what did they call it? Engineering, recording sciences department, whatever. I had made two records because I had created this major called creative music production. So it was like music production and voice and creative writing and guitar and like all this other stuff. So I got to like just basically choose the classes I wanted to take, and then I synthesized them by making records. And so he I was already like, I'm fucking out of here. Like I'm I'm finishing this and I am like going on tour and fuck all y'all. He and he was like sh new, because until I was like a junior late later in my junior year, I didn't, she didn't think I had it. And then all of a sudden it kind of clicked for me classically, and all of a sudden she was like, You do have it. And I had other teachers tell me later, I can see why your teacher was so frustrated with you because so many kids come in here who really, really want it and they don't have it. And you really have it and you don't want it. And I was like, Yeah, I don't. Because I, because for me, it's the same as like going to see my mom in the opera. The coolest thing about seeing my mom in the opera was seeing my mom. I didn't, I I love certain classical music and I love listening to certain classical music, but I don't love the medium so much that I could commit my life to like this fucking oof, like slog of and hustle of like and there's like five roles that everybody's vying for.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 50:22

There are so many things around it that are like so fucking difficult, even more so than being in indie music. Like whatever, like there are it has its own set of really difficult stuff. And I think that the only thing I've really felt like I've wanted to stick with in my life has been my own shit, which has been some some arm of self-expression, right? Because I like classical music. I mean, and I I, as I told you, um, and you were like, that's why you're sick, is because I teach uh top music. I do like a parent in me class, a couple, and then I teach at a preschool one day a week music classes. And you know, my dad is like the the CEO is like, you gotta make that in that's where the money is. You gotta start your own company and you gotta, and he's not wrong. Like parents will spend endless amounts of money on their kids. I did. Yeah, still doing it. Hi, absolutely. And so I'm like, totally like he's like, you go, you do birthday parties, you do this thing, you do this. And I'm like, stop, stop. Nope. I know, I don't know like what my where I am right now with my own stuff because I just put a record out, and every time you put a record out, you become you're it's like having a kid where you come out and you're like, I'm a pile of goo. Who am I now? What's gonna happen next? But you also, I also know my hard knows. And my heart, like, like when I sang at the wedding, classical, the organist was like, Hey, do you wanna like I can get your number and like refer you for gigs? And I was like, No, thanks. Like I was like, I'm happy to stay in touch with you, but why would I haul ass down to Fourth Presbyterian at 8 a.m. on a Sunday when I should be with my kids and make$300 to sing a song for a person I do not know? Like with all of the work I just put into it for two weeks. Maybe it would get easier again, but like, no, that's not, I don't need that. And with the kids' music, I'm doing exactly the lowest lift I love doing right now. Like, I do birthday parties for friends and people who like go to the preschool and their kids know me, and so they want a birthday party with Miss Anna. It is really good money. And my classes every week that I teach, you know, I've taught songwriting at colleges and the amount of like prep and all of that stuff that you do, and that's cool. You're like helping people write songs. Fucking awesome. If you look at it from a business standpoint, you're like, oh, this is dumb. Like, I'm not making anything. If you look at what you can make teaching kids music, it is like on the on the out the hourly rate is like insane. Yeah. Like I'm supposed to yeah, that's what I should be making when I do.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

So are teaching, are teaching children's classes like DJing weddings? Is that what it is?

SPEAKER_02 52:43

So my teaching kids classes is your DJing weddings. Absolutely. Where it's like, I will make a good amount of money at a, you know, at a birthday party. I will go in and teach the classes where I I and I'm I'm like, I'm thoughtful about it. I do curriculum meetings with my other staff members. Um, I'm good at it. I'm like, it's a thing that I have a gift for. I also love babies, so it's like awesome. I I get to be around, like I have I had a class last week where one little babe, she's probably like 14 months old, was like having a bad day, and she wanted me to hold her the whole class. Me. And I was like, yes. And she looks like my daughter who's now five. So I was like, it was like holding my daughter, but not my daughter. And I was just like this goosy little 14-month-old who's like so happy. And I was like, Yes, this is filling the need.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

You like almost had a letdown.

SPEAKER_02 53:27

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. My yeah. I was like, oh my God, this is awesome. And also it's like, not mine. Here you go. Take her back.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

Bye. See you later. On the same note, I like to I like to say, uh, I like OPP other people's puppies, but I don't want to have one myself. But I don't want my own dog. Yes. Wait, do you do your own songs when you're at music class? Are you playing like a muffin?

SPEAKER_02 53:48

I have a couple, no, I it's both. I have a couple that are mine. Um, one song called Fuzzy Bunny that I wrote with a preschool in Madison like 10 years ago. Um, and then um really that's there's a couple of like takes on songs that I do. So like I just rewrote, Hey, good looking, what you got cooking. Um, I rewrote like a verse and a B section for that because we're doing a food session right now. So I made it about jumping, like and and like wiggling and dancing. So it's like it's like easy and fun. Um and then I, yeah, and then what I actually do at the preschool is I do songwriting workshops with the preschoolers. So I go in and I teach music class, and then for one semester, we we as a group write a song. So last semester, the three-year-olds turning four wrote songs that were their song was about the weather. And so like the chorus was look out the window of the house, look out pie at the sky. What's the weather like today? We can look outside. And then we had a verse about the snow, a verse about the rain and thunderstorms being scary, and a verse about the fall. And then the other class, the four's turning fives, wrote a song about playing with your friends is good, getting together in the neighborhood. That was the hook. So e like, so good. They wrote it. So that's the thing. It's like you write down all of the words these kids are saying, and then you like, and you're like, should it sound happy? Should it be slow? Should it be fast? And the kids are like, make it crazy. And you're like, okay, this part's really fast, really fast. You know, whatever. And my daughter's class is uh four is turning fives, and um, most of them are all five now. And their song was um a fucking bop. It went, treat other people how you wanna be treated, treat other people how you wanna be treated. If you sing along, then you can repeat it. Treat other people how you wanna be treated. Uh and then there's all these verses about how you can help a friend if they're having a big feeling. And the the bridge is like big feelings feel like burning in your heart. Every feeling is okay. Come on. So good. That is like that to me is like the synthesis of of all the things I love. Like I'm working with little kids, I'm helping them write a song. It's really fun. It's also easy. And but like to this other point of like, what do I have the capacity to do in my life right now to make a business? Like, I don't want to like chase that. I don't want to like start writing kids' songs and making kids' records. Like that is not for me. The reason I like it is because it's so easy and it's like around the corner from my house, literally. And so, you know, the only thing I'm like where I'm like, could I keep fucking chasing this is my stuff. Like, and I'm like, yeah, this is we're 20 years in. Why stop now? But I I make a joke on stage about wanting to quit every time you have a kid or put out a record. Because it is, you're at that space of like, who am I? And you get stuck in these questions of like, what do I do next? And why did I choose this? And should I go to grad school and do something completely different? And you know, and then every time I'm like, I guess I'm still writing songs. I have a thing I could plug. Oh, plug away. Okay. Yeah. So by now, everyone will know on the internet that I get I am playing at the Evanston Folk Festival in September.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

Which is in like five months or something, not even.

SPEAKER_02 56:54

Yes, I know. Um, it's gonna it it will it was announced in March. Um, but it is uh it feels like a really um that's the I don't know. It feels I'm so excited and proud and like it feels especially to be part of the community and be invited. And then also it's such a national, like it's becoming this is only their third year and they're doing really cool shit out in the world. Um and it's becoming like a festival that people really want to come to. And it's just I think they're just gonna keep gain gaining momentum. And so um, I'm just really excited to be a little bit of a few. That's amazing. My next big show. Yeah, I've got shows before then, but that's like I'm super stoked. And I get to play the lagoon stage, which is like where all the ducks are. Oh, uh. It's pretty. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_00 57:39

Are you gonna try to have a new album out by then? Heck no.

SPEAKER_02 57:43

I'm gonna I'm gonna ride Afterglow like as long as I can ride it. I think like, I mean, I was actually uh a friend of mine was who's a a label person. She was like, Oh yeah, we try to get a full two years out of something. Like you can squeeze it for two years, especially if you put out like a deluxe edition like a year and a half later, or like a live version, things like that. Like we're I'm squeezing it for everything it is because it's gonna take me a while to get back on the horse of making another one.

SPEAKER_00 58:12

I bet it's just like vomiting your feelings and like you just feel like you had like a colonoscopy of emotions.

SPEAKER_02 58:19

Pretty much. That's pretty much it. Yeah. Just like that every Friday. I just vomit them out. To children? No. Uh, I'm part of a song game where I have a song due every Friday uh with other artists. Uh, a friend of mine, he sends us a prompt once a week. That's how I made my last record. So I had like uh 200 songs or something from this like three-year period, and then we went through and like picked the 12. Actually, I think it's 11 songs.

SPEAKER_00 58:44

What an incredible process.

SPEAKER_02 58:46

Yeah, it's wild. Um, and you know, like when you write a song a week, a lot of it's garbage. And that's okay. It's I I like believe in the like if it's coming out and you think it's garbage, lean into the garbage because maybe next week will be something good.

SPEAKER_00 58:57

And then you had to get that out in order to get the gar the non-garbage in the side.

SPEAKER_02 59:02

Non-garbage, real songs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:03

Well, I'm so glad that you gave me some an hour of your time. Thank you so much for having me. I'm just thrilled to be here. Thank you. Uh, how can people find you other than at the Evanston Folk Festival in September?

SPEAKER_02 59:16

The best way to find me is to go to the Anna.com, which is T-H-E-A-N-N-A.com, which has been my website since 2003.

SPEAKER_00 59:25

That's great.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

Uh, because my last name, while I think it's easy, some people struggle with. It's Vogelzang. So you can Google me or just go to my website and then it has all the links to all the stuff. The shows and the Patreon and the Spotify and the Bandcamp and the everything else. The merch.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

Not the not the first two CDs, though.

SPEAKER_02 59:43

No, that you're just gonna have to like track me down and I will maybe, maybe, maybe send them to you in the mail, but probably not make an alert on discogs and see if uh somebody tries to sell it.

SPEAKER_00 59:53

100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:55

Oh, I think there are like versions for sale on eBay, which is what gets me.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

I'm like, does anyone know that I have hundreds of these? So like it's barely a collector's item. Uh well, thank you so much, Anna. And uh yeah, see you soon. See you soon. Thanks for listening to All of the Millady Business with me, Mary Easty. Uh, we'd love for you to like, review, subscribe, follow us at All of the Millady Business on the RAM. And if you're a female identifying person and you want to dance, you can follow. I mean, everybody can follow us. But if you want to be a part of the magic at the hot slash dance party, slide us for the find out where our next party's gonna be. And if you are looking for that, or anywhere else, you know, money's the same color everywhere, quiet out, twist.com and listen to my radio show at our radio show on trip radio at trip radio.org. That's Monday. Every Monday. Today's episode is pretty good by Shiraz Data. Alright, guys, peace out.