The Nitty-Gritty Has To Be Done With Amelia Forczak

SPEAKER_01 0:31

All right, welcome to Olive in my lady business for today. I'm very excited to have my friend Amelia Forzak on the pod today. Hi, Amelia.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Hi, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Of course. Amelia is a New York Times bestselling ghostwriter and founder of Pithy Word Smithery. She's worked on more than 100 books, including multiple national bestsellers. And her proposals have secured six-figure advances for authors ranging from Fortune 500 executives to serial entrepreneurs. I'm one of those.

unknown 1:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

I'm a serial entrepreneur. So thanks for coming. I think it's so cool that you're a ghostwriter. I didn't know you could admit you were a ghostwriter. I thought that was like a secret job you couldn't tell people about.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

You know, you're bringing up a great point. I realized that that was an issue from the very beginning when I started doing this. And I thought, how am I going to market myself if it's a secret? So from the very beginning, I was like, we need to do more than just ghostwriting so that clients are excited to talk about other things we've done for them and we need to make it cool. And we need to have a platform so that when we do want to talk about projects, it's a benefit to clients because so many people see it. So but yes, you're right. It normally is something where a lot of ghostwriters don't realize that and then they can't even talk about the projects they work on. It's a travesty.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

You're like, my name is Stephen King, but I'm a ghostwriter. Like just fooling people that way. Um, so how do you how do you use how does one become a ghostwriter? Like, did you go to school for were you a ghost for grade school Halloween? Like how does how does this happen?

SPEAKER_02 2:00

You know, it's one of those jobs that you never realize exists when you're a kid. Uh I I always wanted to write books and I went to school for journalism, but I all the newspapers were consolidating when I was graduating college and I didn't know what to do to write. So I went into marketing and I just happened to have my CEO get a book deal and it sort of just fell in my lap where he wanted to have this book and for marketing, we said, Yeah, that'd be a great idea. And um he didn't have time to write it. So I wrote it and I fell in love with it, and I realized that this is his job.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

So when you wrote it, like were you like you what was the book about? The guy?

SPEAKER_02 2:41

It was a business book. And so it was an HR consulting firm and we had a ton of data from um employee surveys on what makes people engaged in their jobs. This is back in like the the 2000s when everyone was talking about employee engagement. And so the book was on that as like the top 10 things that make people most engaged in their job. And it it was really useful as a business book because it's like top 10 things. Number one's recognition. It's like, how do you get your employees to be happy? You just tell them they're doing a good job. It's like not a novel concept, but it's something where most people are like, oh yeah, I should do that more.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

I think you need to hear that as a business owner too. Like you, you get so wrapped up in the like minutia and bullshit that you forget that the people that are driving you crazy are also like the ones that are uh making your life possible. And, you know, you I you I also have this like dumb Gen X thing where like I don't need praise and I don't want to give praise. Like it's not in my nature. I don't like being complimented and I can't compliment other people.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

I have a little bit of that too, where I'm not like super praise driven. Um, but like some of the advice from the book is like schedule it into your calendar where you're like, oh yeah, if it doesn't come naturally, you have a reminder, or it's like, thank three people today.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

So when you were writing this book, were you did like is it all like basically the data and then you wrote it?

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Yeah, it it was funny because a lot of the content was already written. That's something that a lot of aspiring authors don't realize. When you have uh quote unquote thought leadership where you're an expert in something, you've probably been producing content on that thing for a while. And so our company had blogs and white papers and case studies and all this stuff that as a marketing person I had written for the past like year or two. And so you can take what you have and see how that fits into a book, and sometimes that cuts the workload back a ton. Like I think in this case, it half the book was already written.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

So you do you get royalties from that, or does that just get go straight to the person who wrote it?

SPEAKER_02 4:46

That's another great question. So authors get royalties if they um you get it in different ways, but I think the biggest thing to think about for books is that uh the kind of book that that I do at my company is really more of a marketing piece for people's brand and business. And so they're not really trying to sell a million copies of the book, they're trying to sell a decent number of copies and then use it to get more paid speaking engagements or get more clients for their business and be recognized as an expert so that they can sell something that costs more than the book. And sometimes those speaking engagements pay like 15 grand, 20 grand more than that. And so if you can sell those, like let's focus on that instead of selling a bunch of copies where you're making, I don't know, five, ten dollars a copy, which is a lot to make for a copy. Um and you'd only get that money really if you like are self-publishing it. But for me, I don't do the royalties, I do flat fee because unless the book sells a ton of copies, I'm probably not gonna get that much from royalties, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:50

I'm actually I I follow a couple of like writers on Instagram and I'm like, you know, I pay for some of their like Patreon type things. So I get kind of a behind the scenes like look at like what it's like to be a writer, and like they're all like, yeah, there's no money in it. And it's like, then why are we all why are people doing like there's like even authors who've read a who've like written a lot and I mean I'm sure there's some writers that obviously make a ton of money, but like, you know, if you're writing like a self-help book on recovery or something, like I don't know where the money is in that. Maybe there is no money in recovery.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

It's it is an interesting, it's an interesting topic, right? Because I think that there's this um, there's this sort of like romanced idea that you'll write a book and make a bunch of money from royalties. And sure some people do that if they if it's like a national bestseller where it people are consistently buying it for years. Um but it's really hard to do that. And so whenever I'm talking to aspiring authors, I always talk about um what does success look like for the book? Like what do you want it to do for you? And that's how we figure out if there's an ROI case for it. Maybe it's a passion project, right? Maybe it's a bucket list passion project thing or a legacy thing. But if you're doing it as like an actual business investment from the beginning, we start and we talk about that and we're trying to help help people figure out if the book will help get them to where they want to go.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

So, what what made you so you went to school for journalism? Like, how did you what what kind of writing were you doing when you were younger? Like what what got you to even major in journalism in the first place?

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Yeah, I I've always wanted to write books. I've always been a big reader. My mom was a librarian when I was growing up. I think I think I was just good at writing. And uh I didn't really know what to do with that, to be honest. Like, author's not really like a major in college, right? And so um I I don't I don't really do fiction. I've always kind of like been interested in that and doing creative writing. And I remember back at Michigan State, it was like I couldn't even take those classes. Like it was like totally different track than the one I was on. And so um anything fiction just feels like super foreign to me.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Interesting. So, like what what what would you write when you were younger for like pleasure? Or did you write for pleasure?

SPEAKER_02 8:08

Um I used to have like I used to make a newspaper when I was really little. I think I just wanted to charge my parents money for something.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

I mean, and then the second you get into uh you graduate, then all the newspapers start disappearing.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Yeah. Yeah. My uncle was um, he was a sports reporter for a long time. And I remember around the time I was in college, he was starting to do shorter and shorter pieces and getting hired for doing like tweets and stuff like that instead of the articles, and like it just sort of was changing. And I guess it was it was good to see that while it was happening because I'm like, huh, where is this going in the next 10 years, 20 years? Do I want to be a part of this? Do I want to try to do something else?

SPEAKER_01 8:50

So you could get paid to be there, would be there your uncle got paid to write tweets.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

For other people or for himself?

SPEAKER_02 8:59

He was working no for like the AP for CBS, for like he was he followed um or he was the reporter for the San Francisco 49ers for like years and years. And so he's doing like big sports news.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Um, yeah, it's so weird industry. And whittle and whittling it down to a tweet.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Like he whittled Yeah, that's crazy. Well, I think I don't understand how the Well well true. But just the idea that someone who's like who was the staff writer for the 49ers or whatever, like also like has a side hustle of like getting paid to tweet. Like that's I just it's like the economy. I don't understand what a little kid wants to be when they get older anymore. Like I keep asking my son like what he wants to be, and it's like I can't get anything out of him. And then I'm like kind of like, good well, good for him. He's not thinking about capitalism this early on.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

Yeah. It it's crazy just how um consumer behavior changes, right? People don't really read the newspaper like they used to. They're reading their phones, and so that's changed, and who knows what's gonna change by the time our kids are, you know, in their 30s.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

I know. It's I mean, the world is I mean, I don't think the world's gonna look like what we're looking at now. No, like I don't either. Like I I just feel like I mean, everything is moving so quickly and everything got broken, and when it gets put back together, it's not gonna look the same. And I don't know. I I actually think it's a good thing. You know, like I I think it's we we need something new to kind of help us out with what's happening now because I think everyone's just sort of like walking around in circles trying to figure out like how to live through the world right now. Like are you finding that like in the qu like in the content of the books that you're trying to write? Like it can you see like a through line of what because it seems like you're writing mostly like businessy books.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Um right now. What do you see? Do you see any like right like a recession indicator or something like that?

SPEAKER_02 10:48

That's always tricky, right? Um, I think the industry's changed a lot for authors. The thing about publishing is with AI, it's a lot easier for more people to have books. It's more accessible. So even if people are just using it for editing or they're using it for research or anything like that, it's making it uh easier for people to have books. And I think that's a good thing. So I'm definitely seeing that change. The publishing industry's like totally been uprooted, right? Like self-publishing has grown exponentially. And now there are all kinds of weird branches where you're like, is it self-publishing? Is it hybrid publishing? Is it a traditional publisher's arm of self-publishing? And what does that even mean? It's all confusing. So I think like the business model is very wonky right now.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Well what does that mean? What is the difference between self-publishing and you know, re legacy publishing or whatever you're what the other options are for that?

SPEAKER_02 11:46

So self-publishing is supposed to be that you keep all of your money and you keep all of the control and you don't need anybody to tell you, yes, that's a great idea. You can just go do it yourself. Um and then traditional publishing is where you pitch your idea to someone, they see if it's a good idea and they can make money off of it, they give you a book deal, and then the money flows through them. So they own the copyright to the book, they make the money from the book, and then they pay you a royalty. And then hybrid is somewhere in the middle, but there's no standard really for hybrids. And so they're supposed to make the book better and they're supposed to help with getting it out there with distribution or publishing. But sometimes people are paying a big chunk of money up front for that. Sometimes they are um getting a good chunk of royalty, sometimes they're getting very little. It just totally depends.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

So they're so they're probably so basically it's like the book is a means to some kind of other end.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Yeah, absolutely. The the book, I mean, most of the clients I'm working with are using the book as a one piece of their marketing uh overall.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

So you early you mentioned AI. So you're pro AI. You think AI is a good thing with the world?

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Yeah. I actually love AI. I mean, like, obviously, it's also awful in a lot of ways. Um, but I like that it's helping people, it's empowering people to write more. And I've just seen over, I've been doing this for like 15 years, and there are so many people that have really great things to share with the world that just cannot get it on paper. They can't. Like whether it's like uh no time or ADD or um they're just not good at writing, whatever it is, but their story needs to get out there. So, and ghostwriting is expensive. It can't, it's so time consuming that it can be a really expensive thing that a lot of people can't afford. So if there's a tool that helps people get more words on paper, then I'm all for that. Because then from there you can work with a human editor to make sure that everything's accurate and that it sounds like you and um to give it that human touch. But sometimes people can't even get it to the point where we have anything to review.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

And so when that happens, you're okay with someone giving you like a big pile of AI slot that actually has all their data in it, and then you guys can go in and like carve it and turn it into something.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

So interesting question. The AI slot piece. Um, I have heard about writers and editors charging more for that, where if they're like, oh no, no, wait, this wasn't even you, this is AI. We're gonna charge 20% more because it's more work. Um that I'm trying to avoid the AI slot. Actually, I'm I'm working with um a developer right now to help put together a tool that will run on Claude to help people use AI right. Because I think if you go in there and you give AI crap, it will come back with more crap. But if you have a really good outline for your book and you have a really solid framework and it's telling you, like, okay, you need a personal story here. Here's why you need it, here's what the personal story should do. The next thing you're gonna do is talk about how that personal story ties to the idea of the chapter and then the idea of the book overall. And then it just walks them through it. And so if somebody can follow that, and then they they even like just brain dump into the content into the um into the tool and have it edit, I think that would get us in a way better spot than just people open-ended working with Chat GPT.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Um interesting. So um, yeah, tell me your thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Like, I know you're interested in writing a book. Like, what do you do feel like, not to put you in the hot seat, I don't know, but no, put me.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Yeah, put me there. Yeah, I'll take it.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

What um what are the reasons why it feels hard or time consuming?

SPEAKER_01 15:50

To write a book.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

I mean, I think you're right in one hand, because I I really I think that throughout the last 21 years that I've been in this industry and ancillary other things I've been doing, I probably do have at least one book, probably more than one book in like the amount of stuff that I've like written or created or whatever. And I think you're right. I think maybe if I were to actually do an inventory of what I have, it probably would be at least something that somebody else could help me figure out what it means. You know, like I mean, I because I've written, you know, website copy and I've written I've public spoke and I've got, you know, tons of those things. And I have an online lab that I taught DJs how to grow and scale their businesses that I have done absolutely nothing with. Uh, so I probably do have a couple of two tree books inside of me. But I it's interesting the AI of it all. It's like, you know, it's like the devil on both shoulders or the devil and the angel, you know, like because I feel whenever I whenever I have tried to use chat, like where I like brained up my ideas and I'm like, put this into like a podcast script. It like it comes out so weird, and it probably has something to do with like how I'm asking. I know my prompts are terrible. They're let's like they're like, hi, do this, and then they do it. And I'm like, that's exact they do exactly what I asked, but if that's not what I wanted. And I it's like it's like AI is like a mirror of yourself in many ways. Like, you know, you said you said if crap goes in, crap comes out, you know. So if you're just putting in like a bunch of scattered ideas, there's probably not a whole lot of through line in there.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Yeah, it's AI can go sideways. And so you you want to be able to use it, but there should be guardrails and um more instruction around that. And it it kind of seems like that needs to come from somebody who has a ton of expertise with writing books or having the platform guide you through it because if you're trying to use AI to do something that you've never done, it's really it's so hard to figure out how to do that. Like, I'm I'm trying to design a I'm doing a gut renovation and trying to design a kitchen and bathroom right now. I get the design the designs back and I'm asking AI, I'm like, how else would you design this? And is this good or bad? I'm like, this is I like this is a waste of time. Like it's telling me crazy ideas, but I can't tell if they're completely crazy or like I yeah. I'm like, I need to talk to an expert.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Yeah, I mean, it's like that's sort of the problem is that we think like AI will kind of dazzle us. Like I remember when it first came out, I um I didn't, I mean, I didn't understand what it was. And I was at a party and people were just like putting queries in just to see like what it came out with. And I I said, put the to be or not to be speech into plain English. And I it's like I like I couldn't believe how good it was. And then it was like, make it sound like a little kid wrote it. And it was like had all the right themes and was just saying it like a little kid would say it. And that to me was terrifying. Cause, you know, I was thinking to myself, oh gosh, that'd be so easy to just plagiarize things or, you know, but then all but then there has to be a this I feel like that's where like in the backlash of it right now because the our lack of critical thinking skills is what's kind of gotten us into the problem we're in right now, anyway. And I feel like that my more I'm worried that AI is gonna take away our ability to do critical thinking.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Yeah, I'm yes, that and many other things, right? Um water yeah, all of the AI experts right now are talking about the need to slow things down. And I think we should listen to that for for many reasons. Yeah, the critical thinking thing is definitely part of it, and also just like we don't know where it's gonna go. And so being able to use it for things that save us time, but not having it turn on such a crazy thing that we're like opening a can that can't like put it back, you know?

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Um, so when if if somebody who who I have a feeling there's probably some people listening who are like, it's never occurred to me to write a book. Do I have a book in me? Could I write a book? And I guess, like, is it a thing where anybody could write a book, or is there like, you know, like who is it, who are ideal candidates to like write a book that you'd be excited about working on?

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Yeah. Um I think having an interesting perspective is always a good like being an expert and then and having an interesting perspective is kind of like the starting point. Um, we work, we work with people who are sort of like trying to step into something new. And that's always a little bit challenging to write a book for them because it feels like we're building the plane as we're flying it. Where it's like, wait, have you never you've never talked about this, you've never done a keynote on this, you've never had you've written blog posts on it. It's like developing that perspective takes some work. Um, so I think that's always a good starting point if you feel like you might want to write a book is to like flex that muscle and start posting a little bit on social or do some videos or put together a presentation on it. Like just put together some shorter form content on whatever that thing is, so it can start to feel a little bit more solid. Um, and when you have a really strong, it's like it's almost like when you know who you are, then you're ready to move forward with the book. If you're still kind of like, well, how do I feel about this? That really does make it a lot harder to have it um come through and be strong in a long format.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Yeah, I can imagine. Have you ever like had somebody where you started writing the book with them and you're like, this is a terrible idea. This person has no business writing a book and you had to finish it anyway.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

I can usually spot that pretty, pretty close to the beginning. And it's not always like, oh, it's a terrible idea, this is stupid, everyone's gonna hate it. It's more like where what is this going to do for you? And is it worth the time and money to to do it? You know? Um, because it's it's you want people to read it if you put the time and effort into it. And so it's sort of like setting up that platform in advance. Um, so that that's always a big thing. But yeah, I mean, we turn people away if they have crazy ideas about medical things that aren't true or politics or something offensive. Um, I had somebody once who wanted to write a whole book on um how they hated a certain celebrity, and I'm like, this is a bad idea. It was like an anti Dr. Oz book, and I'm like, this is Can't help you.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

You're like, that book is being written by several people all over the place right now. Like we don't we don't need to be adding to that.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

Yeah. Or or like um, what else? Anything that's going to cause a legal issue where it's like, this is a sequel to this book that was written by someone else. I don't own the copyright. That's also not a great, great one to work on.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Wow. So you get crazies that just kind of do so you have to just feel that like is there like a constant flow of people pitching that kind of stuff to you?

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Well, I imagine it would be. A lot of those don't have a really strong ROI, right? They it's have you tested the market? Do you have a following? And so that's like a weak point right there, which is just in general, even if somebody had a really good idea, that'd be the part where we're like, ooh, you should really make this stronger before we put a bunch of money into it. Some sometimes people want to want the book and they're like, and then I'm gonna form a whole business around it. It's like you're better off with the business first. Like if you want to step into this thing, it's like go make money on it, get the target audience, like start having some revenue come in, test it. Proof of concept. Exactly. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Wow, that's interesting because I mean that like I was actually thinking last night, I was thinking about entrepreneurship as someone as as I am wont to do. And I was thinking about how like the difference between like, you know, somebody who bought a business and that they didn't have, you know, that they didn't build or they didn't, you know, they just bought a business. Like, is that person an entrepreneur? That person just owns a business. They didn't start the business, they didn't come up with the idea. They didn't, I'm like, I'm just curious I'm just curious to like, would you consider that person an entrepreneur? But that really wasn't the thing I like. I was really thinking about like how unbelievably hard and lonely it is and the things that you think you're it's going to be are always different. Like the idea of writing a book about the business that I wanted to make and then going and making the business, I guarantee you those are two different things. They will not come out the same. Yeah. Because once you've done it, that's the part that, you know, I mean, I I mean, you've been doing this for 15 years. Like, like what like with the beginning of this, like, were you scared? Or I mean, how did like I I feel like that would be a big leap of face, be like, hi guys, I'm gonna be a ghostwriter. Uh come scare me.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

It was weird. I uh by that point, I like just hated my full-time job so much. Um, I wrote the book for that the CEO. He sold the company afterwards. He left, became a professional public speaker. It was the company was bought by private equity. It totally changed. And so I was a little like young at the time. I was like in my 20s, and I didn't want to work there anymore anyway. And so I thought, okay, I'll quit this job. I'll try starting my own business. Actually, I started my own business on the side first. I started on the side, and then I kept working that job. And then I at one point I was like, I think I could build, I'm at a point where I can't build the business anymore without quitting the job. I didn't want to work there. So I quit the job. And I thought, if this whole thing with running my own business doesn't work out, it's not really a loss because I didn't want that job anyway. So I'll just go back and find another job at some point. And I was lucky enough to not have to do that. So, how did you get your first client? Um, my CEO was kind of like a sponsor to me. Like, you know, they talk about like mentors, but it was like more than that. Like he really was so helpful with introducing.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Oh, the mentor, the the guy you wrote the book for. The guy, the first guy.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

Yeah. And the the funny thing about having speakers as clients is they meet a ton of people. And when they're talking about their book, people always come up to them after and say, like, I I'm interested in writing a book. What was it like? And so it was it's been such a good source for referrals over the years from all my clients. Like, I I didn't do any marketing for my business for like probably the first at least like eight years. It was a hundred percent word of mouth. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Yeah. Wow. Um, and then I guess that means you have to bring on people to you.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

I was kind of slow about that, to be honest. Like it's har it's hard when you're you don't know. I I I didn't go to business school. I don't know how to grow a business. I started writing books about it and learning a ton from clients. But the thing that really, really hit me was when I had my daughter and I realized that the business couldn't really run without me. And so I had created uh basically created a job for myself rather than a functioning company. I have no maternity leave, right? And then I was like, oh, I see the whole reason why people want to scale. Because up until that I was like, I don't know if I want to scale, I don't know if I want to like manage a bunch of people, like I'm making enough money, I'm happy now, it's fine. And then I was like, oh, this is why this doesn't work. Um, so ever since then I've been so much better about getting systems in place, getting things out of my head, and getting the whole get it actually organized as a business. So it's not just me.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

How how did you how did you deal with maternity leave working for yourself?

SPEAKER_02 27:08

It was a shit show. I think I took maybe like a month and a half off, maybe not even quite that much. And then I I went back like a few hours a day. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

That sucks. It's like the thing that no one really thinks about. Like, especially I mean, women, men never don't have to think about it. But when women start businesses, it's like that's that is how I that's how I I mean, I had been scaling very pretty much from almost the beginning, like with toast and jam, because I'd started getting more leads than I could handle like almost immediately. Um and I was able to kind of yeah, I mean, it was weird. It was, you know, like I I was a fresh of breath, breath of fresh air, I think, in the industry uh when I came in and um and I looked different and I felt different and I was different, quite frankly. And I think that that, you know, really obviously helped me. But I had other DJs working for me, which is but they were just working for me. They weren't like running the show. So it was just like more people, you know, that I was managing. And it wasn't until I got I got married and I wanted to take a honeymoon. I wanted like two weeks off. I wanted to like not think about work for two weeks. And that was what that was the thing that really got me kind of going. And then when I had maternity leave, I I was able to take a real maternity leave as a result of that because I had people in place. But it's true, I but I had to like have my honeymoon be the thing that freaked me out enough to get me to get another person in there so that I could take time and not have to be in this place all the time.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Yeah. It sounds so simple, but getting your whole business to run without you for an extended period of time is very difficult.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Yeah. But when you can but once you do it, I mean, uh being on the other side of it, like it doesn't r truly end. I mean, you still wind up getting calls about things and you know, I mean, it's not like I mean, it's mostly stuff that's like I would that that I would like to pawn off on other people too. So it's like I get I get why I'm getting brought in on some of this stuff that kind of sucks. Um, and nothing fun. I'm never being brought in on fun stuff. I'm always getting brought in on stuff that's not fun, but and there's never an end to the unfun stuff of running a business. Do you have full-time employees?

SPEAKER_02 29:19

Not yet. I have like 20 freelancers. Um, at one point I had like almost 40, which felt like way too much. And I was because we're they do so many different things, right? We've got we're we're doing more marketing back then. So I had um copywriters, I had website developers, graphic designers, and then I had ghostwriters, people who specialize in developmental editing, people who specialize in copy editing, that's like sentence level, and then we we help people publish. So I have proofreaders and cover designers, people that do interior layout, people that do audiobooks, then I had the internal people where they're project managers, um, then the like the accountant, I've got a fractional CFO, I have an assistant. Like they all do their own thing. And so like collectively, I should have a couple full-time employees based on like how much I'm paying, but figuring out how to funnel that all into one job that makes sense has been difficult.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Well, and finding that person is all it's it's not so much the job, it's finding the person, one person that can do all those things, which I think is like the the business owners, like I don't know, the dilemma. They just need this person that doesn't exist. And you I keep trying to get it so that people and it's not that I'm trying to save money, it's more like I just I can't have more people around me. Like there's it's like, yeah, I don't know. It's like I I I and also I can do 80 million things. Like I can do everything. Like, why can't you do everything? And it's like, oh, you're a different person from me. You're also not the owner. Like I also assume everybody cares about it the way that I care about it. And um, they don't and they shouldn't. That's that's the that's the that's the harsh, the harsh part of it is you have this thing that you love, you know, this this I mean it's such a cool business being a ghostwriter. Like it's like you're a it's like you're a secret, you know, weapon or something. Um and I'm sure that whenever you tell somebody what you do, you get good reaction, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Yeah, people are it's one of those jobs where people are like, oh, it's like something that they haven't thought about in a long time, or maybe they've like never met someone who does that, which which also helps me because then if they hear of anybody who is interested in writing a book, they're like, wait, I just met a ghostwriter. And so that's that's how I get so many um referrals. I think there's more of us now. Um, but yeah, just just funny how that works. But yeah, going back to the figuring out like your full first full-time person or or how you're hiring people. Um I know that you were working with the um EOS consultant. Yes. Okay, so that's when we connected most recently. Was at the 10K SB um happy hour. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Amelia is also a graduate of the 10,000 small businesses, one of many of you that have been on my show. Like I have that 10KSB man. I'll never I will I don't ever be able to really like fully let them know how much I love them.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

It it has been, I I also love 10KSB. It's just so nice to be around other people who get it and understand what you're going through. Um, but the the entrepreneurial operating system is something that helps so many small businesses. And I'd written about it in books before and sort of like halfway tried to implement it, but never really had an accountability partner. And I realized what I'm really missing is like my integrator, which is the person where usually the the owner is like quote unquote like the visionary. So you have all the ideas and you're like, you have so many ideas that you like don't have time to implement all of them and figure out how to how to do that. And this person is the one that makes all the things run. And that is the person that I still need.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, my my integrator is also doing um everything else. So I mean, so I I uh but I do think it's um yeah, EOS has been the best thing that's ever happened to my business. And I wouldn't have EOS if it wasn't really for 10 KSB because I had been given traction. I had been, you know, I I re you read traction and you're like, this all makes so much sense. God, this is what I should be doing. But you don't read, it's so hard to just turn the entire cruise ship around and have everybody on board doing a whole new way of doing things. And, you know, it's like, I don't know, but you like I one of the things that I've come to realize is that like, you know, when I started my business and you're when you're young and you don't know what you're doing and you're kind of just making it up, it's like so easy to be idealistic and kind of get people to kind of go along to get along. But then the further you get into like actually the nuts and bolts of the business and you know, the all the stupid stuff you have to do that has nothing to do with you, you know, like I don't know, like z like exit signs on your retail store that you didn't think about. And it's like you get busted over these things where you're like, I okay, like the door's right there. Uh, I think they probably know where it's at, but I get why I need this, but like this isn't like I I hate how regulation has to fall on everybody the exact same way when everybody isn't this. I'm not I so I think exit signs are important. I don't want to sit here and say that like an exit sign isn't important, but if you like walk into a store that's you know 400 square feet and only one door, like you know where the exit is. Um so having to do all that stuff makes the the actual nuts and bolts of being a business owner kind of a heavy cross to bear.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Yeah. Getting it getting into the nitty-gritty is generally like not a good use of time for for an owner, but it the nitty-gritty has to be done. So somebody's gotta do it. So you have to find that person who's detail oriented and can think, like do good critical thinking and like in your way of doing it too. Yeah, and then just present the idea of getting like, yeah, here's what I think we should do. And you're like, great, do it.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Yeah, but can you? I mean, that's the thing is getting people to execute, especially like because there's a voice. I mean, you're trying to, I guess, take on the voice of the person that you're writing for, which I think that that's interesting. Are you do you feel like you're kind of creating the voice, or you are you using your own voice? Like could someone read every book?

SPEAKER_02 35:44

Yeah, that's a good question. So um that part always has felt easy to me, like figuring out how to write in somebody's voice, because it really should just sound like how they talk. So if I talk to them for long enough, I understand what it sounds like, and we want probably want to sound just slightly more polished on the paper, right? Um, so that part has been um, and all that just adjusts a little bit for each person. Like maybe it's shorter stories or longer stories, it's more formal or it's more casual, it has run-on sentences or doesn't, like all that has been like very intuitive.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Um so do you can you like read a book and know it was ghostwritten? Like is it that is that is it can you tell it? Is that a thing you can tell just by looking at her?

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Well, um, not necessarily by like reading it, but by thinking about the person and thinking logically if they wrote it. And that's usually like a celebrity, right? So like um Paris Help's line has a she's yeah, she she has a great book. Her memoir is fantastic. And um, she had a ghostwriter, and from reading that book, I know that ghostwriter had her work cut out for her because Paris talks about how she's ADD, she's all over the place, and the voice says that. Like she says that directly in the book when she'll like go to this idea and come back to this one. And it's so I feel like the ghostwriter totally channeled her. And I'm also like, there's no way she wrote it herself. Not saying she's not smart enough. I'm sure if she wanted to and she put her time into it, she could totally do it. Does she want to do that? No, why would she want to do that? That's like not what her expertise is, right? Like, so I think it's more about yeah, does the celebrity have better things to do with their time that they're but better at than writing a book? Then they probably use a ghostwriting.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Yeah, I remember when Britney's book came out, and I mean it was the most obviously ghostwritten thing in the world, but I loved every stinking moment of it. She probably was a nightmare to work with for on her book. Um, but yeah, I mean, so like Renee Brown probably wrote all of her books.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

Yeah. Uh probably, yeah. I mean, sometimes people have like, there's so many different ways that you can get help. You can get help with like the outline and the structure. Everyone needs an editor. And she's working with traditional publishers. So like she's not gonna just write the book and they're gonna print it. Like she's going to have an editor. Um, she might even have a literary agent who gets in and helps with her um the proposals and that kind of thing. It just that depends on how messy things are, right? Um, how much support people end up needing.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

So messy. What what's messy?

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Um, like how messy the writing is. Sometimes um, I don't want to put like academics in the hot spot here, but maybe I do. Uh, people who are really, really smart sometimes have like very messy writing where it's they're trying to make it um appealing to the average person, but it's there's too much, there's too much. Like a lot of research, a lot of things that don't need to be in there. Um and sometimes it can be all over the place. A lot of um entrepreneurs also are ADD and things are all over the place. Um if you don't have a good outline, you can easily circle back on the same points over and over. That's messy. So um, I've actually found the people that are uh tend to be the easiest to work with. Guess, do you want to guess? There's one easiest people to best, yeah, who who come up with very um and I think like easy to work with in terms of like good for ghostwriting. They come up with like surprisingly good drafts.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Can I get a hint?

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Um it's a function in in every job, in every company has this function.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Um they're good with people.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

Administ Administrators? Salespeople.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Salespeople.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Yeah. They're good communicators. Yeah, they're they're good, they're especially good for interviewing them. So if I'm writing a book for someone that's good at sales, um, someone who's good at sales, they're going to be a good client. Like I know that.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

And so, but I mean, like, are they sales books where you're like teaching you like how to sell more? I mean, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 40:06

No, it doesn't have to be a sales book. But if they're if the person has a good background in communicating and explaining things, especially like one-on-one, that's a that's really what the job is when we get on these in interviews where I'm like, tell me how this works. And they're able to go through and talk about it. Sometimes we get on calls and people are so flustered, they're like, ah, it's hard for them to even articulate how they feel about something or how how it's hard for them to get all of it out of their head and into the conversation. And that makes it harder to write for people like that.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

And I'm sure I mean, my just speaking from myself, my own experience when I think about these things, I you know, I go through the whole cycle of no one cares about what I have to say. Like what I say is stupid. Actually, maybe I've got some good ideas. And I kind of, and I then I kind of like, well, actually, I'm entertaining. I can tell good stories, and then I'm back to, but nobody has no one cares. Like, no who still I tell a good story. Does anybody care? And so it's like I talk myself out of the idea that I want to put forth, or I'm so afraid of saying it in the wrong way or being misrepresented that I don't say anything at all.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

Yeah. I I want everyone to know that that is the hardest part about writing a book. It's not actually writing it. Is all the emotional stuff, all the imposter syndrome and the going back and forth on it and the feeling the weight of it on your shoulders where you're stressed about it or you aren't sure how it's gonna be received, all of that stuff is so much more taxing than actually just like putting the work in and getting the words on paper.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I mean, I imagine I mean, I I I mean, someday maybe you maybe you will help me write a book. I would like to have one just in the same, like I'd like to say I have a I mean I I know I've got the information. Like what would you so who so other than salespeople, like what are who like, like does do you think everyone has a book in them?

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Um I think there's a stat that something like 92% of people think they have a book in them. So I it maybe, and that's not always about them. Maybe it's a children's book or a romance novel or something like that. Um, but a lot of people do want to write a book and it's it's doable.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

I think that for me, I had to, I've been uh I I pinned my own number in my cell phone, like in my in my contacts, in my in the messages area. And then I just text myself ideas that when I figured I could do that, that's actually changed a lot of my information and thought gathering is I just text myself things. And I feel like that is like a like an ADD accommodation, is me realizing that I can just speak things. Like, and I I wonder how many people like didn't write things because they like were bad typers.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Yeah. The talk to text option, I think has to totally change people's lives with being able to write because there are so many people who are great speakers, but not confident good writers. And so if they're able to talk their book, that that works great for us. We've had multiple clients do that. Um maybe they do it while they're walking their dog, or they just do like the one-off note and then they take it and they copy and paste it. Um, and of course, now you can use like otter or something like that, one of the transcriptions that makes it easy, but you can totally talk your book. Um, it's also good to we had um we've had a client, this was years ago, but um who was quadriplegic and he can't type, he had physically type. And so being able to talk your book definitely opens it up to make it more accessible for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

So yeah, I mean that's that is kind of amazing. I mean, it's like if just to have somebody to like who knows what they're doing, and it's I mean, you said it was expensive, like like how like how like what what is the a range for what it costs to hire a ghostwriter?

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Well, there's a huge range. That's the part that's so confusing for people. Um, you can always find it for really cheap, um, for people who have no experience and are just trying to do it as like a starting point, or um people who are uh maybe not located in the US. There's different ways that you could get a a cheaper product. It's not always um might not always be what you want to do it that way, or to go with somebody who has you know no experience or um that can be tricky. The mid-range is sort of like a wide range. Like we talked about Paris Hilton's ghostwriter, um, and other celebrity ghostwriters, they're making hundreds of thousands, like more than more than three hundred thousand, four, four hundred thousand for for writing that. And um for some of these people, they're they're they're working on it for like a year, a year and a half. That's like the thing that they're working on. So it can be a ton of work depending on what client you're working with, how much information they have, um, how deep you want to go. Sometimes people work on a book for years trying to like piece together all the details of someone's life. Um, if it's a shorter thought leadership book and the client's organized and has all their content together, maybe that's an easier project. Um, but I I think for a book like you're you're probably looking at like 50 grand, a hundred grand for an experienced ghostwriter. Um it's time convening.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

So that's so that's what so that's what you charge. You charge a hundred thousand dollars for people to write books for people.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

Depending on the book, we do. Yeah, it it can definitely be lower than that. Like sometimes it could be like 30 grand or 40 grand if it's a shorter book and it's not as complex. Um but there are a lot of factors that can make it really complicated. So it just depends.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

So when these people are buying your services, are they like taking out a loan or are they I mean it's in it's it it's it'd be crazy for me to think about dropping like $50,000 on a book right now, like that I with cash, like I so like I yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Some of these people are booking speaking engagements where they're making 20 grand, 20 grand a piece, and they're they have 80 of them a year. We have one of those clients. Um, we we're also working with executives that are making like I don't know, more than a million a year, or or entrepreneurs who sold their company for a hundred million. So um there we have a couple we have a couple of those. So they're we're not really working with too many people that are um that are on a a strict budget, but some of our clients are right. And so I I think that is kind of good why um if you can work with AI to make the process more accessible where you can write and have AI maybe edit it a little bit along the way, it can make it cheaper for people. Like I think you need a human for the outline. I have really worked with AI extensively to try to do book outlines, and I have not seen AI be able to do that yet. Um, they will it'll put something together that's gonna cause problems later. So if you can work with a human for strategy and outlining and then follow a really good outline and at least get content mostly in the right spot, get words on paper, and then work with a human again for editing it, it can be much less expensive.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Like a situation like that, is that like $10,000 or more than that?

SPEAKER_02 47:29

Yeah, for outlining, we're usually at $6,500 for the strategy. Yeah, strategy and outlining. Um, and then for developmental editing, it depends on the word count, but maybe it's like I don't know, $15 grand, 20 grand.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

Um What's the difference between develop what's developmental editing?

SPEAKER_02 47:48

Yeah, that's big picture edits. So that's going through the whole thing and talking about the uh clarity is a big one. Like, does this make sense? Are there certain areas that need to be fleshed out? Are there certain things that um are repetitive? Should this chapter get moved over here? What's the voice like? Are we talking to the target audience correctly? Um, is it positioned properly? How are the transitions? What about the interviews? Like you go through the whole thing and um it's a really uh it's a a more intense edit. And and everyone needs that. When an author has a book deal, the publisher provides that. Like everyone needs that part for the book. So um, and that's why I was saying, like, if it's messy, it's gonna be more work. If it's really clean, this might be a more streamlined, less expensive process.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

So, like an editor, like, because you always hear authors thinking they're editors, you know, like they're always like, My editor's my best friend. Like, how do you what so is the editor just literally just they're just proofreading and like tightening up, like I mean, I don't really understand. I don't like how do you go to school to be an editor?

SPEAKER_02 48:54

Like, what is an editor now that I'm thinking editor is not a proofreader, that's totally different. Um, when I'm when we're editing books, I won't even correct typos. Like, that's way down the line. I won't even spend time on that. If I even see it, it's not worth my time to even flag that at the point where I'm looking at like the bigger picture things. Um, but they're really just good at they're good with writing mechanics. They're good at like understanding the flow of a piece and how to untangle ideas and how to get the idea across. Um, they're also good at knowing like what the market wants, what's popular right now, what has done well. So they're really guiding the work, um, trying to make it as successful as possible, and then analyzing the writing and then trying to figure out how to improve it. So it's it's an important job for sure. And it's something where even if you're a great writer, you need that person.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

It sounds like a dream job. It's a hard job. Is it? I feel like I'd have a really fun time doing that. I'm when I was in, you're like, you're like, yeah, I'm gonna work for you now. When I was in college, I was the uh proof, I was like the, I guess I was the editor from like my floor in my dorm. And people would bring me their papers and I would just just I would just cover them in red ink. That's what I'm saying. And then they would always get better grades.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

Yeah, that's what it is. So the the editing part, I actually don't love that. I used to do a lot of editing and I don't anymore. I focus more on the strategy and the outlining and the writing. And the people on my team are the developmental editors. I think I'm just slow at it. It's tedious to me. I'll read it and I'll be like, this is wrong. And to correct it, it's like takes me forever to do it. Like I can see why it's like not working. But there are people on my team who were so good at it. So it really is like a niche. And the people that do that editing, they don't always like ghostwriting. So sometimes I'll have a project where it needs editing and ghostwriting, and someone will be like, I'm not a writer. That's how I feel about editing. I'm like, I'm not editing this.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

Like, give it to someone who's gonna be like, I can't just get the ideas on the paper.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

Like, um, it's so cool. This is like so cool, like what you do. Like, I like how does your what does your daughter think of it? Like, how does how old is she? She's eight. Like, does she understand what you do?

SPEAKER_02 51:07

Sort of. Um we sat down and wrote a book when she was really little. So I was like, oh, I think she gets it. Like she she wrote it out by hand and on paper and drew all the pictures. And so I think she gets it to some degree, but she she mostly likes to meet my clients because a lot of them are like, she thinks they're fancy or they've got like cool stuff going on. So, like, like this weekend we're going to meet with a uh memoir client of mine who has uh a big house out in Colorado, big pool, and he's got like a horse that she can ride, and like that's the part that she thinks is cool.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

Getting flown to Colorado to like talk to a guy in his ranch sounds like fun.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Yeah, it is fun. We and we met earlier, um, I think in February or March, and we went skiing in Aspen um because he used to ski a lot. And so we did interviewing like Sloakeside, and that was nice.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

Are they that that is that normal to get that kind of treatment? I might, I might have to be I want to become a ghostwriter.

SPEAKER_02 52:10

Yeah, it's funny. I it's better when the author feels comfortable to talk about everything and you want to make it pleasant for them. That's the experience, right? Like they don't want to sit in front of the computer all the time. This this person in particular, like, he needs to move around. And so he came out here to um visit me when we were working on the book and he kept pacing around my house and I had the the transcription going. I'm like, I cannot hear you when you're across the room. A walking pad, I set that up for him and I put him on the walking pad. I'm like, you're gonna you could walk, but you're gonna stay right here so I can hear you with the recording. But like sometimes you have to get people like moving, and I don't know, it's funny.

SPEAKER_01 52:50

That's really cool though, to recognize though, to like to recognize that that's like a thing. Like my husband is a pacer, and like when I'm like when we have calls together where we're really talking to someone and he's just like walking away, and I'm like, what are you doing? Like how like and it's just part of his process. He like has to kind of walk while he's thinking about things.

SPEAKER_02 53:06

And I mean that's people are like that for sure.

SPEAKER_01 53:09

Yes. It's neurodivergence. Um well, this has been amazing to talk to you and learn all about this process because it's such a I don't know, it's like a mystery. Like, I think the most people usually know about ghostwriters are like that Donald Trump one had one for the art of the deal. You know, because I always feel like I always feel like his ghostwriter is always being like interviewed about you know how much of society's decline he helped create. I don't think that's really what they're I don't really think that's what they're interviewing him about, but it's true.

SPEAKER_02 53:36

So many people have ghostwriters. Like I i if you see a celebrity book, a celebrity, quote unquote, if you see someone has a book and they're good at something other than writing, they probably had help writing to some degree. You know, if it's a cookbook or it's a book on any any kind of how-to business, whatever, they probably had help if it's good, you know? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 53:58

Yeah. You can't be good at everything.

SPEAKER_02 54:01

No, and you shouldn't try it. It's probably just not a great use of time.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

No, it really isn't. It really isn't. Um, well, let's so is there anything you want to promote here? What do you what can have if someone was interested in writing a book, what would you have them do at this point?

SPEAKER_02 54:14

Yeah. Check us out, uh, pithywordsmithery.com and our handles were on all the socials, pithy underscore wordsmithy. My name's Amelia Forzek. I'm very Googleable. Um, what else? We're doing a a retreat, a writing retreat in Italy in October. We still have a couple spots left. And it I think this is gonna be something we start doing annually because it's awesome. People love writing retreats.

SPEAKER_01 54:41

What is it? What's a writing retreat?

SPEAKER_02 54:44

So a lot of people want to work on their book, but they just can't set aside the time, and it starts to feel unpleasant, right? To have to like want to do this thing. So it's like, how about we actually just make this nice? Why don't we go somewhere great? We'll get a fancy villa, we'll get great food, we'll do wine tasting, we'll have the a great curated group of people. It'll be an awesome experience. And we're gonna have plenty of time to write one-on-one. And then we're also like sitting there with people, helping them. Um and so they're not doing it alone. We do group sessions, and so it's just making the whole thing very like palatable for something that can feel very stressful or like a chore. Have you done it before?

SPEAKER_01 55:27

Have you had a retreat before?

SPEAKER_02 55:28

No, it's our first one. So I have a co-host, and it's kind of weird like hosting the first retreat because you're like planning a party and you're wondering if anyone's gonna come. But people are, so that's great. And uh we'll just get more momentum because now that we have have had the word out, a lot of people are like, Oh, I want to do it, but I can't do it this year. Let me know about next year. And so maybe we'll I don't know if we'll do it in Italy every year, or we'll hop around and do like a domestic like one, or you know, but it seems to be very popular so far, which is great.

SPEAKER_01 56:00

Yeah, I mean, it's it's a really cool idea. I mean, can you I mean, I I'm I bet you someone will complete a whole book on that just by having like time where they don't have to like walk their dog or deal with their kids or whatever, like just all the things that take you away from being able to pull anything off.

SPEAKER_02 56:17

Yeah. For big projects like that, you really have to keep the vibes high so that you feel good and you keep going. That's like the name of the game. Vibe, vibe creation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:29

Good vibes only.

unknown 56:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 56:30

That's amazing. Where in Italy, where in Italy are you going?

SPEAKER_02 56:32

It's in Chianti. So in the Tuscany region, it's like 20 minutes from Florence. Uh, we'll be doing little day trips around the area. And I heard that uh right next to the villa, like we can just walk next door and do wine tasting and olive oil tasting. Like that sounds like heaven.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

Yeah, Italy is amazing. It really is. Especially that area, Florence. I mean, I've been there. I mean, I've once, it's not like I've really known much about it, but I it is absolutely gorgeous. Um, well, thanks so much for being on with us. And uh, I'm probably gonna see you when you're ghost writing my book. Awesome. I look forward to it. Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening to All of the My Lady Business with me. Mary Easty. Uh, we'd love for you to like, review, subscribe, follow us to All of the My Lady Business on the program. And if you're a female identified person and you want to dance, be followed. I mean, everybody can follow us, but if you want to be a part of the magic at hot watch dance party. And let's go to my radio show. Alright, guys, peace out.